Rogers Hornsby - 1914/1915 Denison Team Photo

[bcbgcbrcb]

I just picked up the above mentioned photo and wanted to confirm that the player pictured on the left in this close-up scan is Rogers Hornsby.

[bmarlowe1]

Phil - can you post or send me a higher-res scan of that guy's face?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Hey, Mark:

Thanks for pitching in, once I have the photo in hand, I will e-mail you a high res scan.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[barrysloate]

He's got Hornsby's ears, the faces are similar, and Hornsby played at Denison, so I'll go with an unscientific "yes."

[nolemmings]

Here's a closeup from his 1917 m101-6 for comparison:
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[HRBAKER]

I can see a resemblance btw the two.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks for the input, guys.

[Bicem]

ears look way different to me.

[bmarlowe1]

Denison 1915 with Hornsby.

[bmarlowe1]

[bcbgcbrcb]

Mark:

I really appreciate your insight and comparitive photos.

Regarding the small difference in angle of the ears, the head being shown at a slightly different angle in each picture can account for that.

Regarding the chin, in the later-in-life photo, Hornsby would have been significantly heavier than as an 18 year-old kid and as everyone knows, your chin is one of the most prominent places that additional weight would show, thus making the crease in his chin appear to be a little higher.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Let's provide a little background information here:

The Denison minor league baseball team's first season of existance was 1912 and they were only around for a very short period of time.

The uniform style shown in the photo (city name running down the chest vertically) was only utilized for a very short period of time. The earliest team photo that I have found through extensive research was 1909 and the latest was 1914 (Spokane).

The 1915 Denison team photo that Mark provided from the Spalding BB Guide obviously shows a different uniform style and for argument's sake, we'll say that was the only style uniform that team wore during 1915.

Now we have narrowed down the only possible dates of the photo to a three-year period from 1912 - 1914. I assume that everyone will agree up to here.

Hornsby played on the 1914 Denison team but not 1912 or 1913.

Now, my question is: What is the likelihood that a player so incredibly closely resembling Hornsby played on the 1912 Denison or 1913 Denison teams that was in fact not Hornsby?

If anyone can come up with a team photo of the 1912 and/or 1913 teams and it shows that identical player's face, I will be convinced that my photo does not picture Hornsby. Otherwise, I really have no doubt that it is him based on more and more research that I do.

[bcbgcbrcb]

In doing more research on www.baseball-reference.com, I have just discovered that the Texarkana minor league team from the same league as Denison (Texas-Oklahoma League) was not part of that league's standings in 1912 but only 1913 and 1914. This is relavent because one player pictured in the Denison team photo has the same style uniform with Texarkana spelled out vertically going down the chest.

Based on this information, the only possible dates for the photo can now be narrowed down to 1913 & 1914 with a great deal of certainty.

Now even more so, what are the chances that a player looking nearly identical to Hornsby played on the 1913 Denison team? Even better, a player looking nearly identical to Hornsby playing on Hornsby's 1914 team but not being Hornsby?

[bmarlowe1]

Uniform style is not an issue here, the problem is the face.

>>> Regarding the small difference in angle of the ears, the head being shown at a slightly different angle in each picture can account for that.

The difference is not small, and the head angles are close to identical. I have 3 other Hornsby photos at similar but slightly different angles, and the ear angle measures virtually the same in all of them. Only the Denison player is so different. I will post tonight if you like.

>>> Regarding the chin.....Hornsby would have been significantly heavier than as an 18 year-old kid and as everyone knows...thus making the crease in his chin appear to be a little higher.

First - the more prominent chin is evident in the 1915 Hornsby Denison team photo I posted. Also - what's nice about that crease is that the kind of weight gain we see for Hornsby does not cause it to move. The images are all vertically registered - the key is the distance of the crease from the lower lip. Please show me photos of any player where the crease has moved like that.

Note also that the location of the bottom red line would be little affected by weight - it is an estimate of the location of the bottom of the jaw bone - something I've learned how to so.

>>> What is the likelihood that a player so incredibly closely resembling Hornsby...

I don't think he looks that much like Hornsby, and that level of similarity is common. We see it all the time on this board. He bears little resemblance to Hornsby in the 1915 Denison team photo.

BTW - a 600 dpi TIFF scan of the ear will probably tell us with virtual certainty if he is or isn't Hornsby.

[slidekellyslide]

In my opinion that guy doesn't look anything like Hornsby.

[bmarlowe1]

An exerpt from my next newsletter:

"....the facial recognition center of the brain is both very powerful and easily fooled. We know that the sense of recognition felt when viewing a face in a photo can be heavily influenced by suggestion from a supposed authority. It is also strongly affected by whom one wants it to be, and thus has a higher rate of error than might be expected."

[bcbgcbrcb]

"In my opinion that guy doesn't look anything like Hornsby."

I think that with nearly 800 views since I started this thread, it would have been quite clearly disclosed long ago if the individual in the photo did not look anything like Hornsby.

We have resorted to a supposed 7 degree angle difference of his one visible ear in trying to determine if it is Hornsby or not along with a crease maybe 1/4" different in his jawbone/chin area.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

In my opinion that guy doesn't look anything like Hornsby.

agreed, sorry Phil!

[bmarlowe1]

>>>We have resorted to a supposed 7 degree angle difference of his one visible ear in trying to determine if it is Hornsby or not along with a crease maybe 1/4" different in his jawbone/chin area.

These are actually significant - this is how you accurately determine identity. You seem to prefer a "method" that we know is highly inaccurrate.

The posted photos of Hornsby (and many I did not post) all match with respect to these comparisons. Only the Denison player does not match.

[Bicem]

The ears are way off, both of them. The difference is not slight or because of angle. Unless Hornsby had his ears done, that's not him.

[Jaybird]

Not looking good for me either. I understand the research you've done but the guy in your photo looks very different from the PC of him only a year or two later.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I guess that we will agree to differ.

(The spalding guide photo is not nearly clear enough to make any kind of determination. I'm actually surprised at the decent quality of this one as many of them were blurred, double-printed, etc. and you could barely identify a player even when his name was printed right underneath his picture).

[slidekellyslide]

The Spalding Guide photos also have players misidentified...the 1913 Superior photo clearly has Dazzy Vance and "Glass Arm" Eddie Brown mixed up. Those Spalding Guides are great references, but not always accurate.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks, Dan. That's more like the photo quality that I am used to from the Spalding guides.

If I can figure out how to adjust the settings for my scanner, I will post a higher resolution scan of the photo (600dpi not sure about the tiff part though).

[bmarlowe1]

>>>The spalding guide photo is not nearly clear enough to make any kind of determination.

It's not clear enough to make any measurements, but unlike the Denison player in Phil's photo, he very much looks like Hornsby.