I got screwed over on the BST today!

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been here many years, and obviously have not always agreed with everyone , but this is the first time I remember getting profanity-laden PMs. I guess I never ticked off the Bruces.

That just shows you didn't do it right. Piker.

[mark evans]

I agree with the buyer here and can understand why he and others might wish to avoid this seller in the future. The seller has also learned a valuable lesson and may wish to avoid the person who backed out of the deal to sell him the upgrade.

Having said that, I don't own a '51 Mantle and have never felt that my life was unfulfilled as a result. Thus, it doesn't seem to me to be a major sacrifice for either party to do without the card for the brief period necessary to procure a replacement.

[asphaltman]

My guess as to what happened -

Seller lists the card for sale for X dollars or best offer...

Buyer A contacts seller and they agree at $3275 to have a deal.

Seller states paypal payment should be made to such and such address...

Seller receives another email from a Buyer B who probably offers $3,500 for said Mantle.

In the meantime Buyer A's transaction of $3275 goes through.

Seller says "oh $hit....I can make another couple hundred dollars here".

Seller tells Buyer A sorry circumstances are making me change my mind for the time being. I'll reimburse your money.

Seller tells Buyer B "hey you got a deal, but keep your mouth closed and please do not advertise you bought this from me".


Sounds about right. And if this is anything close, it's not worth the crap your name has just been rung through on this thread. You mentioned having other places to sell...of course you do. But how many of those places have this volume of specialized buyers and NO fees associated with said sales? I'd say you've screwed the pooch on this one, seller.

[Jewish-collector]

Dave - Thanks for explaining it in easy to understand terms.
Let's take bets on WHEN Leon will lock this thread.

[asphaltman]

It may be a while based on the Cobb Lenox thread. Leon seems to have mellowed in his old age.

[Enfuego]

So the moral of the story is, if an agreement is mutually met, honor your portion do not alter in the aftermath...

[calvindog]

Well, we've certainly blown past the typical Mastro fraud thread in terms of pontificating and hand-wringing. Lots of real important stuff here, though, keep it going!

[Kenny Cole]

Jeff,

I get that you are more concerned with issues of systemic fraud such as that perpetrated by Mastro and his minions. I don't disagree with you that, as a whole, that is obviously much more detrimental to the integrity of the hobby. We are on the same page in that regard.

That being said, it seems to me that rightly or wrongly, a lot of people view the BST as sort of a safe-haven from the Mastros of the hobby. Whether or not it is accurate, the perception is that on the BST, folks honor their word and don't screw their fellow collectors over. When someone admittedly does just that, says he "understands" the frustration of the guy he just screwed over and basically admits to completely lacking any integrity whatsoever but says tough luck, get over it, that sort of flies all over people. It did me.

I was one of the folks who wrote a letter to the judge about what a POS Mastro was. But that certainly doesn't mean that stuff like this doesn't also deserve to be strongly condemned. This, in some respects, is a lot more personal because it calls into question the integrity of a board that has, to date, not had too many similar situations occur, at least that I am aware of. That's my $.02, which is probably about what it's worth.

[egri]

What I can't figure out is why in blazes someone would sell a card they do not yet have in hand, especially if it is because they haven't bought the card yet. If that really is what happened, then this whole episode could have been avoided if Dan had waited a couple of days. I'm concerned about what asphaltman posted because I'm worried that he is accurate. I understand that the BST is caveat emptor, but still, a deal is a deal, and it should have been honored. I've thought of Net54 as being the one place online (probably in person, too) where I don't have to worry about being fleeced. I've always considered the Net54 members the most knowledgeable and ethical group of collectors out there today. Maybe I'm naive, and need to reassess that, but I hope not. As to the seller's contention that he "understands" what the OP is feeling; no, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't have yanked the rug out from under him, because on a $3275 transaction, that's a really lousy thing to do. Especially when the OP has done everything he was supposed to do.

Sco.tt Mar.cus

[Bpm0014]

Gobucsmagic74.... One word: Karma.

[cozmokramer]

Thanks everyone for the comments and support. I didn't think the thread would go this wild, I really didn't.

All I wanted to do is ALERT other collectors about this seller so the same thing doesn't happen to them.

Wow was I surprised to find out he already did it to many of you!

[GoCubsGo32]

A while ago.... I sold an original traveling trunk that belong to William Wrigley Jr.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=210555

I sold the trunk for a fair offer within less than a day to a board member. Hours later, I received an email from an outside person(not on the board) who wanted the trunk badly (a vintage trunk collector) and knew the trunk had been sold. The outside person mention he would "make it worth it" and "not waste my time"....of course money had been exchanged by this time. So the trunk was technically sold, but still.. it was in my possession. I was tempted just to see how much more he was willing to buy it from me even though the deal was done. I called him listen to his offer, it was more..I stopped him and said. Sorry deal is done, before I got too tempted. I called the board member who bought it from me and mention there's a person who wants it badly, before I ship it..did you want to listen to his offer? I mention he could make a nice profit if he wanted. The board member decided he wanted to keep the trunk and to ship it to him.

I could of back out of the deal and made a bigger profit. I didn't. I pass that chance to the board member who purchased it from me and mention I would ship it to the other person if they made a deal to make it easier for them.

Ethics can be a bitch sometimes... but I honored the deal.

[begsu1013]

[bobbyw8469]

You're really late with the popcorn. The movie is over and everyone is discussing it. Move along unless you want to hear spoilers.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

That said, I have already expressed to Eric that I will absolutely sell him the card (which I do indeed still possess) at the price we agreed upon once I am able to locate and secure a suitable replacement.

If we believe this statement, it precludes the possibility that Dan will sell (or has sold) this card to another person.

Part of me hopes Eric will agree to this, just to see if Dan follows through.

[cozmokramer]

Here is Dan's latest PM... Now he was going to honor the deal but then realized there was no incentive to do so... How about "honor", "honesty", I could think of a lot of incentive....


"Many of you? C'mon Eric, lets not go overboard here. Take your money and find yourself a new Mantle, it really isn't that hard to do. Btw, I was literally seconds away from getting in touch with you and honoring the deal this morning until I read through the thread and realized there was absolutely zero incentive for me to do so. I am truly sorry things went down the way they did, but it's not the end of the world for either of us...even if I never make another deal on this board which is quite possible. "

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cozmokramer

Here is Dan's latest PM... Now he was going to honor the deal but then realized there was no incentive to do so... How about "honor", "honesty", I could think of a lot of incentive....


"Many of you? C'mon Eric, lets not go overboard here. Take your money and find yourself a new Mantle, it really isn't that hard to do. Btw, I was literally seconds away from getting in touch with you and honoring the deal this morning until I read through the thread and realized there was absolutely zero incentive for me to do so. I am truly sorry things went down the way they did, but it's not the end of the world for either of us...even if I never make another deal on this board which is quite possible. "

I never said I condoned anyone backing out of a deal. In, and of itself, that is not a bannable offense to me. But now, with that last statement of Dan's (hi Dan), and a bit of irony, he is no longer allowed on our BST......there ya' go. There was no incentive not to ban him from there....

Dan- nothing personal...

L

[batsballsbases]

I believe someone said it somewhere in the thread. Karma...

[Stetson_1883]

Maybe this could solve Cozmo's problems...

[bbcard1]

Sorry for everyone's pain, but I'm ready for this thread to be locked. Seller should have never offered and agreed to sell the card and then recant the offer. Buyer was reckless to sell the card he had in hand without receiving the new one…it's not like the Mick was going to have a bad off season. There's plenty of fault and plenty of opinions and I think they've all been expressed at this point.

[Bpm0014]

Quote of the year: I was literally seconds away from ....... honoring the deal this morning....

Shouldn't that be a "given" from the start??

[cozmokramer]

Here is Dan's PM to me a few minutes ago....


"I'm already banned from BST so you got what you wanted. I'll be curled up in a fetal position with my Mantle sobbing it out...lol"


I hope nobody deals with this guy ever again.

Originally Posted by cozmokramer

Here is Dan's PM to me a few minutes ago....


"I'm already banned from BST so you got what you wanted. I'll be curled up in a fetal position with my Mantle sobbing it out...lol"


I hope nobody deals with this guy ever again.

Clearly...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by cozmokramer

Here is Dan's latest PM... Now he was going to honor the deal but then realized there was no incentive to do so... How about "honor", "honesty", I could think of a lot of incentive....


"Many of you? C'mon Eric, lets not go overboard here. Take your money and find yourself a new Mantle, it really isn't that hard to do. Btw, I was literally seconds away from getting in touch with you and honoring the deal this morning until I read through the thread and realized there was absolutely zero incentive for me to do so. I am truly sorry things went down the way they did, but it's not the end of the world for either of us...even if I never make another deal on this board which is quite possible. "

i call that 'seconds away' comments instead of 'bargain hunters' like the tv show i call that 'excuse hunters'


i hear that with rentors all the time....'i was just about to pay rent' but then 'i heard you told my neighbor i owe rent' and thats not fair..so now i wont pay...

the fact is if you really are about to pay rent ..or about to honor the deal then you do it.....no reason to bring up excuses....if the deal or the rent was paid on time as agreed then more time would not have passed for more 'excuses' to come up..whether it be some posts on a thread on b/s/t or a nieghbor being told that you owed rent........you dig?

[Laxcat]

Thank you for perpetuating the stereotype that everyone that deals in sports cards is just like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

[jbhofmann]

I'd be upset as the buyer as well but I hope I'm not the only one that finds posting PM's troubling.

On most message boards I belong it's against the TOS to post private messages in the public forum.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I don't find it troubling whatsoever. I think as much information as possible is needed.

What I find troubling is that there have been other problems in the past with the same seller, but this is the first time it's been mentioned. These are the kinds of things that the board should know about so we can make wise informed purchasing decisions.

[cubsfan-budman]

posting PMs is wrong (has been called out on other threads before) as is calling someone and IDIOT in a thread. Packs handled that admirably.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Posting of PMs is permissible in "extraordinary circumstances" as stated in the rules. I think when a member gets screwed over it's an "extraordinary circumstance"as it doesn't happen that often, but that's just my opinion.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Sometimes people make allegations and the only proof for or against them are in PMs.....not fair to not allow in those situations.....or in situations when someone says one thing then they appear to change their mind even though were defending an initial position.....

[packs]

Conveniently left out your insults directed at me because of my harmless opinion on a baseball card transaction. Cool.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Conveniently left out your insults directed at me because of my harmless opinion on a baseball card transaction. Cool.

They're not insults if they're true. if you think it's ok to change your mind after a deal is agreed on and the seller is paid, then you are either an idiot or morally corrupt. Which is it?

[packs]

Well I'm not surprised to hear you take that route. Just because someone has a different opinion than you on trivial matters, that doesn't make the person an idiot. In fact, taking that stance says a lot more about you than it does me.

[begsu1013]

this thread is embarrassing on so many levels.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Maybe it's for the best-that bullsh*t centering on that Mantle would drive me nuts. He can find a much better example!

Funny, I thought that Mantle looked fantastic for the grade, which is why I think it's causing such a problem between these two collectors.

There's a 3.5 that sold on Ebay for $300+ more, that looks half as good as this 3. I think this is one of those "buy the card, not the holder" examples.

Aesthetically I think Erik will have a hard time finding a similar card at a similar price, no matter how many of these are out there.

[timn1]

Agreed

Originally Posted by packs

Well I'm not surprised to hear you take that route. Just because someone has a different opinion than you on trivial matters, that doesn't make the person an idiot. In fact, taking that stance says a lot more about you than it does me.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by timn1

Agreed

I'm sorry for taking the stance that backing out of a deal once agreed upon is ethically wrong. Blame my folks, that's just the way I was raised. Obviously character matters to some of us, while others it does not.

[packs]

You're problem is that you frame things in a way that you think skews to your perspective. The issue here is you insulting me for no reason at all. As has been demonstrated by everyone else in this thread, it is possible to express your opinions without insulting people. So once again, so you're clear on why what you're doing is lame and inexcusable, its not cool to insult people who disagree with your trivial opinions. Its even less cool to hide behind polemics instead of just acknowledging your behavior.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Thank you for perpetuating the stereotype that everyone that deals in sports cards is just like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

"You mean the card with the sideburns"

And off topic, any luck getting Mr. Culp to come on up for one of my shows. Eddie has a photo of him (not a great one as he is in a windbreaker) but we got something. ANd we'll obviously be able to come up with cards.

Let me know and see you next month.

Rich

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

So once again, so you're clear on why what you're doing is lame and inexcusable,

And so once again, it's not an insult if it's true.

id·i·ot: a stupid person.

Edited to add: So once again, if you think it's ok to change your mind after a deal is agreed on and the seller is paid, then you are either an idiot or morally corrupt. Which is it? If you're morally corrupt, just say so and I'll edit my posts from idiot to morally corrupt.

[packs]

Usually using your words is a positive for any confrontation. I hope people feel the same way about your moral character as you'd like them to feel about the seller in this thread.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Another thing that makes you an idiot is that you don't know when to shut up. I gave you the last word in post #183. That wasn't good enough for you, you had to start in again in post #188. 4+ hours of no response wasn't good enough for you? Ok, so once again, I'll give you the last word. Go ahead and say whatever you want to say so we can move on and I promise not to respond. You can have the last word once again.

[packs]

Maybe you should try that thing again I talked about before. Someone commented on your posts directed at me so I responded as well after you conspicuously ignored half their post, which I've noticed is typical for you.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--I'm no lawyer, but didn't Eric have a contract. To cancel the contract wouldn't Eric have to agree? If it was cancelled unilaterally by the seller, and Eric loses money buying a new Mantle, can't he sue for damages?

From the legal standpoint, there was most certainly a binding contract which is enforceable, and either money damages or specific performance (compelling a transfer of the Mantle at issue to the buyer) is in order. Specific performance may depend upon whether or not this particular card is considered unique. In a more practical context, almost anything that goes into litigation will ultimately entail at least 12-20 hours of legal time, at approximately $200/hr. or so as the attorney's fee. Unless you can go through small claims court, the lawyer is the only real winner.

Also from a more practical standpoint, the failure of the seller to fulfill his promise to sell upon completion of the transfer of the funds will, as a virtual certainty, reflect so poorly upon him that those who are aware of this failure will refrain from engaging in any transactions with him.

Conclusion: It's time to deliver the card, Dan, with no more BS.

Most sincerely,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Also from a more practical standpoint, the failure of the seller to fulfill his promise to sell upon completion of the transfer of the funds will, as a virtual certainty, reflect so poorly upon him that those who are aware of this failure will refrain from engaging in any transactions with him.

I disagree, respectfully. If he has a card someone really wants, they will overlook it, just like most people overlook all the other BS in this hobby. As has been said ad nauseum, stuff trumps all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Larry, remember Oliver Wendell Holmes' "bad man" theory of the law? Case in point.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I disagree, respectfully. If he has a card someone really wants, they will overlook it, just like most people overlook all the other BS in this hobby. As has been said ad nauseum, stuff trumps all.

I would also respectfully disagree, Pete. My experience over more than 25 years of collecting is that when a dealer/seller gets a bad rep, others will and do refrain from dealing with him. Unless its an extremely rare item, they can get it elsewhere--all that's necessary is a little patience, which the hobby could use in various respects.

I do always like to read your posts, and wish you the best,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I would also respectfully disagree, Pete. My experience over more than 25 years of collecting is that when a dealer/seller gets a bad rep, others will and do refrain from dealing with him. Unless its an extremely rare item, they can get it elsewhere--all that's necessary is a little patience, which the hobby could use in various respects.

I do always like to read your posts, and wish you the best,

Larry

How many people do you think stopped bidding in Legendary after all the Mastro/Allen stuff came out? My guess is not many, even among their harshest critics, as has been acknowledged on this Board in fact. Not making a judgment about that, just pointing out that stuff is what rules. Look at all the insinuations of shill bidding against certain major online ebay sellers. Their dominance just keeps on increasing.

[asphaltman]

It doesn't sound like anything is going to change here, Dan hasn't changed his mind and I guess he's already been banned from the BST.

Leon is he banned from just selling?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many people do you think stopped bidding in Legendary after all the Mastro/Allen stuff came out? My guess is not many, even among their harshest critics, as has been acknowledged on this Board in fact. Not making a judgment about that, just pointing out that stuff is what rules. Look at all the insinuations of shill bidding against certain major online ebay sellers. Their dominance just keeps on increasing.

The sort of interesting thing about that, at least from my perspective, was the fact that I wondered if bidding in Mastro/Allen after the indictments wasn't much safer than before. I actually talked to my brother about that at the time. My thinking was that even they wouldn't be so brazen, bold, stupid, whatever descriptive term you want to use, when they were under indictment and being heavily scrutinized by the feds, as to shill the cards at that point. It wasn't that I didn't think they were cheaters and fraudsters, because I absolutely did, but I thought that they would be running the cleanest auctions ever at that point because they were already under indictment.

I tested this theory one time, in one auction, and threw in a couple of what I considered to be fairly low max bids on the last day. Surprisingly, I actually won both of the cards I had bid on, both below the max bid price, one at a really good price. That doesn't mean that I wasn't shilled by any means, but I will say that I was really surprised by how little I ended up paying for cards. I view it as somewhat of an interesting character study about how greed and fraud works when the feds have you and are far up your ass.