Help with pinback

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Posted By: Mike H

I just purchased this pin. I can't find it in any books, but the seller seems to know pins (non-sport)well and believes it to be vintage. I would like your input regarding history, age, or even value. I took a little gamble believing it to be "good" and listed in an odd location. The first link is the auction I won, the second is from Hunts, and the third is an obvious reproduction.

Thanks

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110170882556&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=001

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=5&lot_num=358&lot_qual=

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-BABE-RUTH-BUTTONS-PINS-SULTAN-SWAT-MEMBER-CLUB_W0QQitemZ320155484796QQihZ011QQcategoryZ37609 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD10VQQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle pinbacks I always shy away from because there are so many reproductions out there....I have to say that the one you won on ebay looks aged and has a legitimate look to it, but then again it's one of those items that I have no clue if it's a fantasy pin or something that was legitimately produced and distributed during Ruth's career. I wonder if that's also why the Hunt lot went so cheap?? You normally see those Ruth scorers go in the $100-$200 range so the pinback in that lot may have been inconsequential to the winner/underbidders.

In short, I don't know and sorry for wasting your time.

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Posted By: Mike H

Not a waste at all Dan. I agree 100%. I'll email Paul Muchinsky and see if he will reply.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Maybe try Rob Lifson...Not sure if he reads this side of the board, but I know that he sometimes responds to comments and questions on the card side.

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Posted By: RobertEdwardAuctions

Hi Mike H! I wish I could report better news but this "Sultan of Swat" Ruth pinback is not vintage. It's really just no good. It is what I call a "fantasy pinback," which is a little different than a reproduction, as there is no vintage original. It is not a reproduction, because there is no vintage pinback of this design. This is a pinback design that someone made up from scratch (in some quantity years ago), apparently specifically to sell to collectors as a vintage item. No one knows who made them but they're all over the place, and we frequently find them even in advanced collections. I'm always happy to answer any pinback questions as best I can. Baseball pinbacks have always been a favorite area of collecting for me!

Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

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Posted By: Mike H

Thank you Robert. I appreciate the information (unfortunate as it may be).

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Posted By: Mike H

I've contacted the seller with hopes he will be understanding. I havn't sent payment as yet.

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Posted By: RobertEdwardAuctions

This particular seller is top notch. I'm sure you won't have any problem. Also stay away from the celluloid pencil clips with portraits of Ruth, Cobb, Wagner etc. - they are also all non-vintage "fantasy" items that, like a lot of these not real celluloid items, seem to confuse a lot of collectors after being around for enough years. Some of these fantasy celluloid items that appear to be from the 1930s or older were made as far back as the late 1980s or early 1990s and have some age to them now.

Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

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Posted By: Mike H

Robert, you were spot on. He was very professional, pulled the auction, and said he would pitch the pin. It's terrific when people do the right thing.

I read that you sold your baseball pin collection Robert. If you buy chance have a digital photographic record of your it, I'm sure many collectors including myself, would line up to purchase a DVD.

Thank you again for your insights.

Very Sincerely,
Mike Hoevet

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Mike,
You may want to check out the book Smithsonian Baseball.
Inside the worlds finest private collections. There is a GREAT section on Some of Robs Great pin collection! Also some of the great collections other than pins. Done by Stephen Wong. Hope that helps a little. Hello Rob hope all is well with you ! Nice to see you still love the pins and questions! Thanks for taking care of part of my collection!! Regards Al

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Posted By: Mike H

I do have Smithsonian baseball Al, and have worn out the pages with Robs collection. I just want MORE!!! Ha ha. I would love to see a Baseball Pinback Buttons II.

Can anyone recommend dealers who specialize in pinbacks or who have a large selection? They were in extremely short supply at the National this year.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Pinbacks are one of the great untapped areas of baseball memorabilia collecting....very little literature on the subject exists and there are no websites that I'm aware of that focus on pinbacks. How nice would it be to have a website to go to that would tell us right away which pins are legit, which are fantasy and which are repros?

Muchinsky's book is nice, but it is more of a coffee table book than a source for information. I do not have Ted Hake's book and it is difficult to come by...I did recently sell one of my pins to his co-author Roger Steckler and I asked him about a new book and he said he has no plans to do one. Steckler had recently sold off the bulk of his collection in a Random Treasures auction last year and it kind of surprised me when he won one of my pinbacks on ebay. I guess you never can fully get rid of the collecting bug.

And thanks to Rob for chiming in....and also confirming what I had suspected regarding those celluloid pencil clips in the Sotheby's auction.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Dan,
Yes I agree with you on Muchinskys book . A very nice source for reference but MANY of his prices are way off the mark. Also the book is so incomplete as to many of the older pins I.E. cameo pepsin, wards sporties,buster browns,etc. etc. I understand I believe the book was put together from his own collection but he would have been better off working with people who have collections with pins he doesnt have. That way the book would have been alot more complete. And yes Mike pinback buttons 2 would be a great book if done more the complete way. I hope the Good Dr. reads this and takes that into account the next time he does a book.

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Posted By: dan bartenbaker

i will be trying to organize a national pinback button show in different regions across the country,so far i have the interest of dr. paul muchinsky and marshall fogel to name a few. but i may need some time to bring it all together,let me know who else out there in pinback land is interested in this venture. dan

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Please have one near the Kansas City/Omaha/Des Moines area!!!! I am not a pinback collector, but there are certain pinbacks that I have an interest in because they fall into my focus of Nebraska baseball and the Western League.

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Posted By: Mike H

I would be extremely interested in any show from the Chicago to Cleveland area. The pinback sales in Michigan where I live seem to be brisk for dealers displaying at antique shows here.