All I see is TRIM!!!!!!!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The overwhelming majority of high grade vintage cards are altered, without question. Marshal Fogel's entire collection, just about, has been trimmed or was cut from a sheet. His MBA black diamond 52T Mantle PSA 10 is almost certainly sheet cut.

Not saying you’re wrong, but would be interested in a bit more evidence to back that claim up? How specifically do you know that his PSA 10 ‘52 Mantle (there are 2 others that Fogel doesn’t own…) is trimmed? I would agree that a card like that in a 10 is suspect if nothing else - but this is the first accusation I’ve seen on that particular card.

Sheet cut, trimmed or not - Fogel’s collection is pretty insane. It kills me how he shuffles his slabs around like playing cards, no sleeves. I bet they are all scratched to hell.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Not saying you’re wrong, but would be interested in a bit more evidence to back that claim up? How specifically do you know that his PSA 10 ‘52 Mantle (there are 2 others that Fogel doesn’t own…) is trimmed? I would agree that a card like that in a 10 is suspect if nothing else - but this is the first accusation I’ve seen on that particular card.

Sheet cut, trimmed or not - Fogel’s collection is pretty insane. It kills me how he shuffles his slabs around like playing cards, no sleeves. I bet they are all scratched to hell.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mr Fogel’s Collection is Top Notch Insane ! I would assume he could get all his cards gratis reholdered at any time he desires.

[Snowman]

I don't have any first hand knowledge or anything like that. It's just my opinion based on how I believe most of these vintage 10s come to market and the likelihood that a card that perfect ever came from a pack. Anything is possible, but far more sheet cut cards make their way into PSA slabs than most people think.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't have any first hand knowledge or anything like that. It's just my opinion based on how I believe most of these vintage 10s come to market and the likelihood that a card that perfect ever came from a pack. Anything is possible, but far more sheet cut cards make their way into PSA slabs than most people think.

I agree that many very high grade, pre war cards have likely been altered. But it’s not just high grade cards. How about perfectly centered 52 Topps Robinsons? If those are so tough to find centered, I wonder how many of the ones that are centered are that way unnaturally. Surely high grade cards are not the only altered cards sitting in slabs….

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't have any first hand knowledge or anything like that. It's just my opinion based on how I believe most of these vintage 10s come to market and the likelihood that a card that perfect ever came from a pack. Anything is possible, but far more sheet cut cards make their way into PSA slabs than most people think.

I don't disagree that certainly some high end vintage / important cards are either sheet cut or altered or otherwise at least have some history of monkey business in their past. But I would find it hard to believe that a majority of Fogel's stuff - almost all marquee cards in 8's and higher - had sheets with those cards available to cut from. Goudey Ruths? The entire 1914 and '15 Cracker Jack sets? Again, yes I'm sure some are altered but I don't know that I'd bet on a "majority" of them being sheet cut. Some just trimmed or subtly altered? Much more likely.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I agree that many very high grade, pre war cards have likely been altered. But it’s not just high grade cards. How about perfectly centered 52 Topps Robinsons? If those are so tough to find centered, I wonder how many of the ones that are centered are that way unnaturally. Surely high grade cards are not the only altered cards sitting in slabs….

All grades of cards are altered. I have sold a lot of cards graded Authentic to 3s that magically resurfaced one or two grades higher in new slabs that have had work done to them.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

I wish the TPG’s would disappear, but rewinding time to before the internet is not even vaguely realistic.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

nice pipe dream! the tpg'ers have enabled the commoditization of our beloved cards...this is what the present hobby wants.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

Yup... better days for sure. Sure wish it could go that route, but the greed and current level of TPG hypnosis will never allow it to happen.

If TPGs have to be involved, I wish there was a grading company that would treat cards like they do vintage photos (meaning no number grades). The categories could be...

Type 1: Authentic and Unaltered
Type 2: Authentic but Altered
Type 3: Reprint
Type 4: Counterfeit, Fantasy, etc.

This way, the card's owner could decide the grade himself! Some collectors care more about centering than others. Some care more about crease-free cards. Some aren't bothered by worn corners. So who deemed the 3rd party's standards as the "Word of God", and why are there such huge variances in grades 1 - 3, but only microscopic variances in grades 7 - 10? Why isn't the scale even throughout?

Of course this Type 1 - 4 scenario would require an unbiased TPG that is capable of detecting alteration. And yes, I know it will never happen.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by G1911

I wish the TPG’s would disappear, but rewinding time to before the internet is not even vaguely realistic.

Agreed. I started collecting in 1986, and by the time I learned some rudimentary things about the cards that came before me - and almost immediately started pining for vintage cards of HOF'ers that I had no idea where to find - I realized that you were at the mercy of whatever shop or show you could get to that might be somewhat proximate to your physical location. Both with baseball cards (including many that turned out to not be rare at all...) and even non-sport things like Garbage Pail Kids (you'll excuse me, I was 8 in 1985...) in some cases I looked for certain things for YEARS before the internet.

The physical only days I'm sure had their benefits, but the market as a whole for many things - including old cards - was in many cases very poorly allocated before the internet. I found online auctions as a junior in college in 1998 or so, and almost immediately picked up some cards I had desired for what seemed like forever, but had never found. I remember a '53 Topps Yogi Berra was one of them.

While I assume that comment was meant to be wistful / kidding, I have no desire to go back to an era where the only option to get cards is if you do it in person. Don't get me wrong, I prefer to buy in person if at all possible. But the selection based on what we know is possible in the 21st century now would probably be pretty disappointing across the board.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Agreed. I started collecting in 1986, and by the time I learned some rudimentary things about the cards that came before me - and almost immediately started pining for vintage cards of HOF'ers that I had no idea where to find - I realized that you were at the mercy of whatever shop or show you could get to that might be somewhat proximate to your physical location. Both with baseball cards (including many that turned out to not be rare at all...) and even non-sport things like Garbage Pail Kids (you'll excuse me, I was 8 in 1985...) in some cases I looked for certain things for YEARS before the internet.

The physical only days I'm sure had their benefits, but the market as a whole for many things - including old cards - was in many cases very poorly allocated before the internet. I found online auctions as a junior in college in 1998 or so, and almost immediately picked up some cards I had desired for what seemed like forever, but I had never found. I remember a '53 Topps Yogi Berra was one of them.

While I assume that comment was meant to be wistful / kidding, I have no desire to go back to an era where the only option to get cards is if you do it in person. Don't get me wrong, I prefer to buy in person if at all possible. But the selection based on what we know is possible in the 21st century now would probably be pretty disappointing across the board.

I missed the glory days of the hobby, I wish I could get things for 80’s prices! But at the same time, there is no way I’d have even the humble little collection I do have if I was restricted to local dealers, writing letters, and ads in hobby periodicals. So much of my favorite stuff in my collection hadn’t even been discovered then. Good and bad in every era, but among all the scams and frauds and incompetent hobby authorities, there’s a ton of good stuff. Unprecedented and easy access to everything, more known vintage cards than ever before, better quality and depth of research and knowledge. There’s much good.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by g1911

i missed the glory days of the hobby, i wish i could get things for 80’s prices! But at the same time, there is no way i’d have even the humble little collection i do have if i was restricted to local dealers, writing letters, and ads in hobby periodicals. So much of my favorite stuff in my collection hadn’t even been discovered then. Good and bad in every era, but among all the scams and frauds and incompetent hobby authorities, there’s a ton of good stuff. Unprecedented and easy access to everything, more known vintage cards than ever before, better quality and depth of research and knowledge. There’s much good.

+1
.