What's hurting the vintage card hobby?

[Abravefan11]

I'm curious what the veteran collectors and new to vintage collectors think are the things keeping the hobby from growing more than it has. What if anything do we need to change to bring new collectors into the hobby?

[JP]

I think there are too many older collectors who hoard the rarest cards out there, and have no intention of sharing those cards with new collectors. And then when they are sold in major auctions upon their untimely deaths, only the "big buck" boys have a crack at them.

[smtjoy]

I believe that issues like auction house shilling, card restoration and fakes will be future issues that can really hurt the hobby but I think the biggest issue we face is how to attract new collectors into this great hobby.

[glchen]

First, scams. It's hard to buy a raw card these days without wondering if it's been altered, trimmed, or is a reprint. Second, kids these days have a lot of other entertainment options from video games to pokemon. So baseball card collecting has dropped steadily in popularity. Also, baseball as a sport is less popular than in the past. Steroids and the opinion that the teams w/ money can win have hurt baseball. And I think the most important reason is the disaster of the 80s, which has extended until now, which is oversupply of cards. There are simply too many modern sets and cards. People tend to first get hooked on the hobby as a kid by collecting the modern cards and the current stars. Then they start getting more and more interested in the history of the sport, and move into vintage. Now, they don't even get started in the hobby anymore, which hurts vintage. I think each year only needs 3 major sets, an affordable collectors edition, a premium set, and an authentics set. The first two can have an Updated/Traded/Rookies subset, but that's it. With only 3 sets, it can make getting into the hobby a lot simpler and affordable.

[Browncow75]

I think the difficulty of accurately pricing the myriad of the less popular card series without the use of the internet turns some collectors off, where, with modern cards, all you have to do is look at a Beckett. That, along with the huge difference in pricing of the grade levels of vintage slabbed cards (a PSA 1 common vs. a PSA 3 T206 common for example) makes some lean towards newer cards that have a more "standard" price in the market.

[jb217676]

I think the vintage hobby will be just fine. I converted to vintage a couple of years ago. My buddy Rob Miller (Robextend) is another young gun with a passion for vintage, and I'm sure most of the newer members to this forum are younger as well. Watching ebay trends lately, PSA 2 common T206 cards seem to be going for PSA 3 $ lately, compared to what I was noticing a year ago. I'm guessing newer vintage collectors are getting their feet wet in the vintage hobby with the 'monster'.

[mintacular]

I really don't think the vintage years are hurting too much, it's the newer stuff that will never IMO match the vintage yrs. Today's youth will NEVER become infatuated with 2.5 x 3.5" basic picture of a BASEBALL player on front, stats on back (for obvious internet reasons), the way earlier generations did.

[teetwoohsix]

Good question Tim.And everyone made some great points.JP,I agree,and that's sad but true.

One thing I think may hurt the vintage card hobby is the lack of pre-war cards in a lot of local card shops.They carry 50's and 60's cards,and to them,that's vintage.And true,that is vintage,but if you have a couple of showcases in your shop with a nice variety of pre-war cards I think it would catch peoples attention,and ignite their curiosity.

A couple of people who run card shops here in Las Vegas said there's no market here for pre-war,so they do not bother.My first thought was-you have to create the market-make it available!!

If people come in looking to buy a Rose rookie ,,and see a wonderful display of Old Judges,T206's,T205's,Zeenuts,Caramels,etc.,I think it would catch their attention,and get them interested.

Just my two pennies.

Regards,Clayton

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by JP

I think there are too many older collectors who hoard the rarest cards out there, and have no intention of sharing those cards with new collectors. And then when they are sold in major auctions upon their untimely deaths, only the "big buck" boys have a crack at them.

JP what does that even mean? Collectors didn't want to sell when they were alive and if and when they die their collections may go up for sale to the highest bidder.

A good example would be the late Joe P or Larry Fritsch they had some great cards. Perhaps Joe or Larry’s cards will be made for public sale one day. Then I have the chance to purchase them as they were not for sale during their lifetime and I respect that.

That seems to be the normal course for this hobby or any great collections art etc.

So what would be the alternative and old time collector to sell me the card at half price to help me out or share the wealth?

Please don’t tell me we need to redistribute card wealth too (kidding light hearted political joke).

Not busting your chops just don’t follow your logic.

Cheers,

John

[JP]

John,

It was 100% a joke.

Any luck on the pic?

JP

[wonkaticket]

Ahhh got ya, I was really lost there got to roll me a smiley next time...LOL

JP haven't even started since I looked last night..I'll see what I can do.

[wonkaticket]

A big step in fixing this hobby is holding folks accountable and having the restraint to say no to the folks who are caught or implicated in bad stuff. Not just outing card doctor techniques and or posting conspiracy theories or complaints on a chat board.

We as collectors don't do enough holding folks responsible and continue to give the “bad guys” business and support. Guys faking cards, listing cards wrong and selling questionable items is just a portion of the bigger problem IMO. We as collectors need to say no more business for these guys if we feel that strong about them. Not just piss and moan then rush to bid in folks questionable auctions or use folks questionable information websites.

A big part of what is wrong with the hobby and or holding the hobby back is the collectors themselves all of us. We all buy into a system that ultimately in many ways allows us to be prayed upon if you will…IMO.

Cheers,

John

[jbsports33]

I think sites like this really help, I try to help through my site and shows. The main issues I see when a new collector comes into the hobby and wants to collect prewar items is inconsistency with grading, autos, identifying older items – not to mention shill bidding and fraud as well. Those are the main reason collectors stay away from the older items, great topic.

Jimmy

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by jb217676

I think the vintage hobby will be just fine. I converted to vintage a couple of years ago. My buddy Rob Miller (Robextend) is another young gun with a passion for vintage, and I'm sure most of the newer members to this forum are younger as well. Watching ebay trends lately, PSA 2 common T206 cards seem to be going for PSA 3 $ lately, compared to what I was noticing a year ago. I'm guessing newer vintage collectors are getting their feet wet in the vintage hobby with the 'monster'.

I agree, I am sure there will be enough guys like us to try and keep the love for vintage alive. I think a major key these days is being able to display your collection on the internet for others to see. I know I get inspired when I look at the collections of my hobby counterparts.

[drdduet]

To the original question,

a few bad eggs.

[jb217676]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I agree, I am sure there will be enough guys like us to try and keep the love for vintage alive. I think a major key these days is being able to display your collection on the internet for others to see. I know I get inspired when I look at the collections of my hobby counterparts.

Totally OT
Rob, I noticed from your imageevent pics your a pitcher on a slo-pitch team. I play first base for the Baseball Furies in a Toronto beer-ball league. If you're ever in Toronto on a Wednesday night we could always use the pitching help!

[Robextend]

It's modified fast pitch...get that straight!!!! We won 4 Sunday PM championships in a row, dominating Marine Park, Brooklyn!

I wouldn't mind helping you guys out, just get me a passport and that Michael Jordan RC you obviously don't need....

[jb217676]

That Jordan RC was my signing bonus!

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I'm curious what the veteran collectors and new to vintage collectors think are the things keeping the hobby from growing more than it has.

I think, mostly, it's Rob D.

[JasonL]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

I think, mostly, it's Rob D.

This was really really good.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I'm curious what the veteran collectors and new to vintage collectors think are the things keeping the hobby from growing more than it has. What if anything do we need to change to bring new collectors into the hobby?

I started collecting vintage cards a couple years ago at age 26, and greed is what hurts it for me. I'm idealistic and collect the cards for their historical significance; they're like little pieces of art. Occasionally I'll come across an old-timer who realizes this and will sell me a card or two at a gentleman's price, but too often I'm bidding against "some lawyer in New York" that is offering crazy money for the whole lot. Who knows what he'll do with it; for some reason I expect the worst. I really wish I lived 40 years ago when fun cards could be found in shoeboxes at garage sales or antique shops instead of vaulted away in auction houses or flaunted at ridiculous BIN prices on eBay.

Anyhow, just some perspective from a newbie.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Tex

... but too often I'm bidding against "some lawyer in New York" that is offering crazy money for the whole lot.

LOL! You cast a wide net with aspersions like that!

[barrysloate]

I saw it too Jim, but chose not to respond. Couldn't he have picked Chicago, or Walla Walla?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

LOL! You cast a wide net with aspersions like that!

Haha, I'm not referring to anyone here! I have no idea about the background of posters. But the situation I describe has happened to me a few times in my short collecting career, and I'm only a casual collector. Next time, I'll just be sure to ask for the lawyers name.

[T206DK]

I asked the guy at the car dealership if he would accept a partial T205 set as payment for a car...he laughed his ass off. when I asked him if they would accept a load of Krugerrands he stopped laughing. When I can buy a loaf of bread with this tobacco card card I'm holding then I'll admit that investors and speculators haven't ruined the hobby

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I asked the guy at the car dealership if he would accept a partial T205 set as payment for a car...he laughed his ass off. when I asked him if they would accept a load of Krugerrands he stopped laughing. When I can buy a loaf of bread with this tobacco card card I'm holding then I'll admit that investors and speculators haven't ruined the hobby

That's like offering gold as a payment to a def/blind person. What do you expect them do do, say yes without really knowing what it is besides what you tell them it is? It could be a rock for all they know. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a T206 Honus Wagner and a 1989 Topps Mookie Wilson. What do you expect. Sell the cards, then buy the car with the money.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Tex

...too often I'm bidding against "some lawyer in New York" that is offering crazy money for the whole lot. .

It's quite possible that Jeff, oops, I mean the lawyer in NY, has as much of an appreciation of the history behind the cards as you do, he just has a little more disposable income.

[ktwilli71]

One thing that hurts is.....

Technology ! First off young people cant grasp the concept of paying $250 or $500 bucks for a piece of cardboard . Those who may collect dont think its worth it because its not numbered .They would rather pay money for the lastest video game , computer , cell phone or ipod .

Just a thought .

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Matt

It's quite possible that Jeff, oops, I mean the lawyer in NY, has as much of an appreciation of the history behind the cards as you do, he just has a little more disposable income.

I don't know who Jeff is, and that's a fair point. The topic of the thread was about what's hurting the hobby, and my take is that diminishing availability and high prices have made it very difficult for young collectors to break into the hobby. There's gonna be a huge generation gap, and that's bound to hurt the hobby.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Tex

The topic of the thread was about what's hurting the hobby, and my take is that diminishing availability and high prices have made it very difficult for young collectors to break into the hobby. There's gonna be a huge generation gap, and that's bound to hurt the hobby.

pre-war HOFers were never the area that fed new kids into the hobby. And while prices for pre-war are at or near all time highs, availability has never been higher with all the auction houses and the popularity of the Internet. Plus, beat up T206 commons can still be had for $10. I do appreciate your take on it as being a new comer to the pre-war arena.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Matt

pre-war HOFers were never the area that fed new kids into the hobby. And while prices for pre-war are at or near all time highs, availability has never been higher with all the auction houses and the popularity of the Internet. Plus, beat up T206 commons can still be had for $10. I do appreciate your take on it as being a new comer to the pre-war arena.

Consider it from the newcomer's perspective, because once you're "in" of course you know the network. Auction houses aren't well advertised unless you're on mailing lists or post here, and they're frankly kind of intimidating and probably not the best choice for a beginner anyway. You're right, eBay helps, but you gotta know exactly what you're looking for. Most of the vintage baseball card internet sites I came across when I jumped in looked dead and few actually posted an inventory; however, there are several sites about vintage cards that are amazing for learning about the hobby. Much has been said in these forums about the lack vintage cards at local card shops or even at well-advertised shows.

Incidentally, I got my start on eBay and through the classifieds/craigslist. I went to one show (Chantilly), and it actually kinda turned me off.