Let's Be Frank, Actually My Name Is Peter...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I just saw Seinfeld being interviewed by David Steinberg and he talked about a routine he used to do about the wanted posters with the mug shots of the criminals at the post office...it went something like "why didn't they just hold onto these guys when they took the picture?"

I thought that was a typically funny Seinfeld observation.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim C wrote: "Jeff, I have been told by many not to engage you so I won't. Again, I could care less what you think of me. You are the one in my opinion who needs to look in the mirror."

This may be single funniest thing you have ever posted. You won't engage him, but you do just that in the very next sentence. Well done!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- may I ask you a direct question? Why do you continually say you don't care what people think of you, and that you are not on the board to make friends? Because the way I see it, I think you find some personal satisfaction in making enemies. I know not everyone can like me, but I couldn't post on the board if all day long people were attacking me. I just can't fathom the thinking behind that.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, you keep saying that you've been told not to engage me -- yet you continually do. Actually, I have had some very funny conversations about you with people offboard and none have warned me about not engaging you. They've actually found your responses enlightening and hilarious.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Thanks Barry,
I needed a good laugh.... I actually look at the wanted posters in my little post office sometimes, but have never seen any of them, except on AMW... Thank you John Walsh. Time for 24. Be well Brian

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thank you and you too can be enlightened if you would just listen and learn.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- Jeff does listen and learn, and he is a pretty smart guy. Why would you even say that? And please answer my question if you could. Thank you.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Wonder what's going to happen when, by innuendo (or worse), somebody is falsely "outed" for altering cards. Eventually, someone is going to be sued for loose-talking-guess we'll just have to sit back and wait.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Wasn't somebody who resides at a higher altitude than most of us already accused of altering cards? Nothing ever came of that.

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Posted By: John

You guys know what needs to be done, pick up the baby give him some attention and he’ll doze off to sleep until another day…then its pick up the baby…repeat this as many times as you can. The most important thing is pay attention to Jim!

That's a good little Jim, youu'ree so smart aren't ya, I could just eat you up, num num num....I'm eating you up....




“He won't be invited to my annual summer bash-card show this year.”

All joking aside....

I know T206collector is out but I’m still invited right??? I mean I had planned on making my famous Noodle Kaboodle and everything, and most the guys here will tell you its really good. Barry loves the stuff; he offered me some 19th stuff for the recipe.

So I’m still in right????? Jim right?? Hello Jim????

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- You've got to share that noodle kaboodle recipe with me!

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Posted By: John

NEVER SLOATE! FOR THE LAST TIME NEVER!

LAY OFF WILL YA, TAKE A HINT!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wonkaticket,

Yup you can come--but bring the picture--although I am not going to change the date for you.

Like last year there are certain to be several illustrious guests.

Barry--direct answer--because I don't. Doesn't bother me at all--I consider the sources.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Just for the record, if you're trying to say that you care very little about something, the correct phrase is "I couldn't care less" as opposed to "I could care less."

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, of course Jim cares that everyone dislikes him. Any human would -- it's literally human nature to care that people hate you whether you admit it or not. It's one of the things that separates us from the animals. Why do you think he's so quick to kiss up to certain posters who have previously attacked him wildly out here -- just to try to align himself with someone, anyone for comfort? I'm also sure Jim has sent you plenty of emails decrying his treatment on the board - assuming he has, why else would he send them unless the constant criticism bothered him? I think the problem is that Jim knows of no other way to communicate with others and, inevitably, he gets himself into these predicaments time and time again, in venue after venue. As such, he has to try to claim that he enjoys the hatred because, otherwise, he'd be forced to acknowledge that a) he has a problem and b) he must fix the problem. These are two things that are either too painful for Jim to accomplish or too difficult. A rough analogy would be when Pee Wee Herman flips over the handlebars of his bike, rolls on the ground and then pops up, miraculously unscathed. His immediate reaction? "I meant to do that." The speed in which Jim gets frustrated, as evidenced by his now expected and juvenile "ha ha" and "I consider the source" responses indicates that he just cannot figure out how to handle his problem in an adult, rational manner -- and instead just lashes out with non-sequiturs that are not responsive or logical. Another rough analogy especially for you: remember the guy that Elaine dated that when frustrated with her after she criticized him would say things like "you've got a big head - do birds ever fly into that gigantic head?" Same mentality.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

In the case of Jeff, its called an obsession. Apparently he has absolutely nothing else going on in his life that he ponders on and on about me, asks others not on the board about me and attributes all these thoughts to me.

This is someone with a first class psychological problem no doubt about it. Sorry--I have not sent Barry plenty of e-mails--but if you spend hours and hours more obsessing over me perhaps you can find someone.

Jeff hates me everyone--he wants everyone to know--he hasn't said it enough times so I will say it again for him.

Funny thing though--evry time I try to engage him in specifics or e-mail me to discuss his views he never responds and reverts to the hate Jim approach.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, did you have to respond exactly the way I predicted you would?

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Posted By: John

"Yup you can come"

"Like last year there are certain to be several illustrious guests."

Sweet!! Hmmm I wonder who they will be these illustrious guests??? Ahh man this is going to drive me crazy, am I the only one who is wondering who???

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wonka,

You are going to have to wait until the invites are out--and although you are invited as of this moment, you are going to have to watch yourself--one slip-up and you are on the same list as T206 is and you miss it all.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I too have found Kevin to be of great assistance in some of my card purchases. Without compensation, he has advised me on graded cards which have been expertly altered.

I will, however, take issue with his 15% alteration rate. PSA, SGC and GAI have graded something like 15 million cards. That would leave 2 million bad cards out there in slabs. I don't see how the card docs, working day and night, could ever possibly alter that many cards.

Frank

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Posted By: John

Then I feel it's only fair to warn you no Wonka....no Noodle Kaboodle!

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Posted By: Neal Kane

15% of all slabbed cards are altered?

Nah. I ain't buyin it ... with all due respect Kevin.

Like many others, I believe that you are talented but that number seems ridiculous.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Peter:

Sometimes it feels like the values of cards DO drop by the hour after I purchased them.

I've been giving your question a lot of thought, and although I do not consider myself an investor in this hobby (if I am an investor, I'm an awfully bad one), I do think that if the values of cards continued to decline, I probably would make a few subtle changes in my collecting habits.

First, I would want to recover some of the cash I have invested in my '38 Goudey set. So if I saw prices declining rapidly, I'd probably sell that set as quickly as I could - not because I don't love the cards, but because I sure have spent a lot of money on them.

Second, I may "repurpose" some of what I collect. I've always liked larger-format cards with photography - cards like Exhibits, R314s, and the like. I have shied away from them due to the fact that I don't generally like building sets. But if prices changed dramatically, I'd be interested in making a run at sets like that.

Third, I really do like 1952 Bowmans. I'd probably try and build a set of those in high grade.

Lastly, I'd probably go after some more difficult large-format cards like W600s, M110s, and other cabinets. I really do love cards like that - they're very pleasing to me, but a little steep for my current card budget in most cases.

Sorry to have hijacked the thread.

-Al

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Posted By: Kevin

"15% of all slabbed cards are altered?

Nah. I ain't buyin it ... with all due respect Kevin."

You're right, me neither. Let me restate; 15% of vintage cards that I have inspected (which is quite a few). Wouldn't make much sense considering all the cards from, let say, 1975 on up that are in slabs.



"The only thing he failed to mention is how short Kevin really is."

Yes, a towering 5'5" but I have a trash can lid and not afraid to use it .

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

Do you think in terms of percentages more prewar cards have been altered?

Sorry I got tied up--will try again today.

Jim

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Posted By: peter chao

Al,

Actually, your post is only one of a few that have been on point. At least your honest in stating that you would like to get your money back.

A lot of people say they would hold on through thick and thin. However, a lot of times the market doesn't have to change much to change their minds.

This is a new year and I propose a truce. Perhaps we can't create peace in the Middle East but let's at least be civil to each other on this board.

Peter

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Posted By: Jason L

Peace in the middle East is closer than peace on this Board!
Actually, in 2007, I would settle for a gentle unwinding of the collective institutional overweight in the energy sector, as opposed to a capitulatory event that removes the speculative excess in the commodity and shocks the system...But hey, I would take peace in the Middle East too!

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Posted By: Chad

I'd still collect. I'd probably pick a couple of sets to work on and then supplement that with cards/players I just think are cool. I'd love to be able to collect 19th century stuff, but it's impossible right now. So, until everyone else picks up their ball and goes home, I'll stick to working on my Negro League master set which has become very rewarding in itself.

--Chad

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That's what Slab World contributed to the Hobby.

It created The MARK -- et.

Which brought in The MARKS.

AKA the investor/numerologist = easy Marks for The MARK -- et.

True collectors will ride out any crash, simply because they're not disciples of ..... Da MARK -- et.

Dear God.
For what we're about to receive.
Make us truly thankful. ...


Edited the word tryly to truly, but for some strange reason, tryly looks better.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Thank you--one can only pray that the attackers will stop soon for the health of the board.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I don't expect a catastrophic drop in the card market any time soon. So this exercise has been purely academic. I plan to continue to add to my prewar card collection indefinitely into the future.

Regular price adjustments should have little effect on my collecting habits.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

peter chao March 18 2007, 2:41 PM

Modern Cards Would Also Drop

Well if the prewar stuff dropped then the modern card market would probably follow. I would stop collecting both.

Peter
*
*
Will the real Peter Chao ... PLEASE STAND UP.

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

I'm a 100% committed to the Hobby. Kind of. For the normal ups and downs of the market it's not a problem, I'm committed to finishing off my '33 Goudey and other sets that I've started.

But who knows, if the market seriously gets out of whack I'd rather not deal with it. It's sort of like practicing law, who wants a whacko client. As a matter of fact, I'd probably spend more time practicing law and less time posting if it weren't for some of my semi-whacko clients.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

I love it...if you were on the Titanic and it was going down for the last time...you would probably be still sorting your cards.

I'm sure that you must sell or trade away some of your cards once in a while otherwise your bedroom would be in bigger mess than mine and I can't quite imagine that.

Peter

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<I love it...if you were on the Titanic and it was going down for the last time...you would probably be still sorting your cards.>

In that situation it would be best to sort through Titanic cards

http://www.titanicitems.com/pics.htm


going down for the last time..? (LOL)

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"Joe,

I love it...if you were on the Titanic and it was going down for the last time...you would probably be still sorting your cards. "

*
*
You're probably right.

Slowly, but ever so slowly, you'll learn the difference between a sicko collector, and a disciple of Da - MARKet.

Your description of a market collector is perfect.
It has more to do with the stock market, than it does with a HOBBY.

Amigo, what you are failing to understand is that I got involved with cards to get away from the rat race of da MARKet.
I wanted to collect for the enjoyment of it, and strictly for the sublimation it gave me.
The last thing that I wanted was to make it part of my portfolio.
----------------------------------------------

"I'm sure that you must sell or trade away some of your cards once in a while otherwise your bedroom would be in bigger mess than mine and I can't quite imagine that. "

Peter

*
*
Peter, I once traded a T217 Mono for another Mono with Mr. Chericone, and this is gonna really knock your Market mindset off. ... I've never sold a card.

Boy am I sick. .... is there a doctor in the house.
Better yet, .. get me Dr. House.

About my bedroom, ..... wanna bet?

Back to the Titanic.
Can anyone tell me how I can keep my cards dry?

Joe

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

You probably don't want to think of yourself as part of the vintage card market, but you are, if guys like you weren't around the cards would be pretty close to worthless.

As long as the serious and passionate collector is around, the supply of vintage cards will continue to become more limited and prices will continue to trend up. So I want to thank you and others who help make my collecting and investing more enjoyable.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

You still don't get it.

You said:
"As long as the serious and passionate collector is around, the supply of vintage cards will continue to become more limited and prices will continue to trend up."

*
*
Peter, do you really believe that?

Just look at this board.
There's nothing wrong with it, but you can't deny that this forum is predominantly a price oriented board.

How much?
Who grades best?
Is this a 5 or a 3?

The questions are valid, but again let's be honest, they represent the Wall Street Journal more than Lipset's encyclopedias.

This may come as a shock to you, but the only time that this forum gives the appearance of being a pre WWI card forum, is when the handfull of collectors on this board talk about the actual cards, and not the "How much?"

The fact is, speculators and investors outnumber collectors on this board.
Again I say, nothing what so ever wrong with that, .. but I can't help thinking that maybe a 1929 baseball card crash might not be so bad.

Speculators can go back to the Wall Street Journal, and collectors can go back to having collector like fun.

It would be like putting the "H" back in the Hobby.

Please Do Not wake me up, I'm beginning to like this dream.

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

I agree with you but my point was that the earnest collector (people like you) were the ones that created the market by collecting and holding when others thought vintage cards were worthless pieces of cardboard.

You guys are also the brake when speculators and investors decide to sell.

Thus your role in the vintage market is extremely important.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

A secondary point I'd like to make is that not all collectors think the increasing value of their collection is a hindrance. Personally, I bought 4 T206 Hall of Famers during the past two years. So far, they have gone up a 100%, I do not expect them to continue going up at that rate but I appreciate that and it adds to my enjoyment of collecting and I do not consider it a hindrance.

Since, you've been collecting T206's much longer than I have, I suspect your collection is worth at least 5-10 times the money you put into it. Why is that a negative.

Also, other people would be fools not to invest and speculate. Who knows among the investors and speculators there may also be some people who will become serious collectors.

Peter

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Posted By: Cobby33

In large part, what Joe says, I believe, is accurate. If the Vintage market "adjusts," I would be willing to bet the demand for cards people buy to enjoy would remain steady (or increase) and the high-grade, high-dollar (just to be high-dollar) cards would lower.

If you think about it, do people spend large amounts of money on high-grade cards because they have an expensive fettish for nicer-looking cards; or because there's a perception that they will appreciate at a higher rate? I would guess the latter. This phenonemon is no different than most any investment of tangible goods.

It is also a truism that without the draw of flipping cards for a quick (large) profit, the "epidemic" of altering, cheating, etc. would wane as well- it simply wouldn't be worth it. Then we'll have nothing to talk about.

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Posted By: peter chao

Cobby,

Your right there's an epidemic of cheating and that is a negative brought on by those who want to take a short cut, guys who are not satisfied with 20% annual increases.

However, the investment mentality also encouraged the growth of card graders and so far they have done a decent job of controlling the epidemic. So ironically, the investment mentality may have saved the hobby and the internet has brought the hobby to more people.

So the impact of investors may not be that negative.

Peter

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Posted By: Cobby33

Peter- I agree. I think overall, the investors help the hobby. I was merely pointing out what may happen in an overall adjustment. But I do agree with your learned points.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Count me among the people who would love to see the market hit bottom on prewar cards...not that it will ever happen.

I don't own a single card in a slab. I will take Poor/Fair cards all day long -I will take ex/mint cards if I could, but on my long ago abandoned shot at the Monster ($ to Bill Heitman) I had cards ranging in all grades and I never looked to upgrade - it was just filling holes and once it was filled it was filled. I much prefer learning about the guys on the cardboard than flipping for profit. That's a whole other game and I have nothing against anyone who does that because I know a lot of people do that to finance their hobby and they are very good at it - it's just not the way I approach the hobby. Nearly all of my focus is collecting items that I view as companion pieces to the research and resulting knowledge of the game I love.

Now with all that gibberish out of the way....if I had unlimited funds and it didn't matter that the market is very high and buying a PSA1-2 Wagner would be the same as the average guy buying a hamburger I would go absoulutely crazy - My focus would expand to include set building of every major set pre-WW2. Every member of this board would hate me.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Peter, every one of your points, only points out my point that points out and proves that you are an Investor in Denial.
Even your fellow speculators will agree to the fact that it was the graders that created the cardboard MARKet.
Why are you always the last to get the word?

Elated that you cornered your 4 T206 HOF's.
Tell me, when you called your investment broker, did you tell him to add them to your portfolio with the U S Steel stock, or that you're adding a new word to the investment lingo.
You are now collecting stocks.

Peter, an investor in denial is not a crime, you've already come out of the closet on that point.
Believe me, I don't give a rats @ss if your T206 stock goes up or down.
What you fail to grasp is the simple fact that you and I have a totally different mindset about the cardboard.

Simply stated, my fun and joy is filling an empty slot in a binder.
Whereas your fun and joy is the upside of the T206 MARKet.
As a matter of fact, I have archived where you said that if the card stock MARKet took a dive, you would stop investing in cardboard.
Now here's the part where you have difficulties in understanding.
Being that the ups and down of your stock MARKet was never part of my game plan, if your MARKet takes a dive, I would continue to try to fill an empty slot in the binder.

Peter, There's an old movie called "Born Yesterday."
In it, Broderick Crawford has a classic line with a young William Holden.
"Never crap a crapper."

During those days, among other things, you weren't allowed to use the word "Bull Sh!t."

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

Dan has a more balanced approach to the hobby. You keep on insisting that I am only an investor, whereas I consider myself an investor-collector.

Granted I may not be as serious a collector as you are but I am concerned about what happens to the hobby. Only in extreme conditions would I sell my core collection of 200 cards. I do not plan on going down with the ship, I would rather try to save a little of my money and put it into something more enjoyable.

Perhaps a true collector would rather collect cards than eat, I would rather eat and find other things to enjoy in life. It may sound crazy but some of us believe that there is more to life than baseball cards.

Peter

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Oh, good.

I was trying to find out where I should go in order to find out where on the spectrum of "seriousness" I am as a collector. Looks like I've found the place.

Can't wait to find out how legitimate I am.

Can someone please tell me how to download the forms I have to fill out, and who I need to forward them to?

-Al

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Posted By: dennis

you know you're an investor when you start threads like this one.

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Posted By: peter chao

Dennis,

I never said I was just a collector, but I resent it when you serious collectors say that I can not also be a collector.

I still remember walking around the neighborhood to collect coke bottles so that I could buy another box of Topps Wax Packs so that I could complete my series. However, I was never patient enough to complete a set of Topps.

Then recently I finished a set of '57 Topps including the Baker error in ungraded EX-MT condition. One day I would like to have a master set.

And Joe doesn't take it seriously when I say the collector is the foundation for the market. Let's put it this way as an investor I feel much more comfortable knowing that there's a group of serious collectors out there that will buy when the market is dropping like a rock. I'm comforted by the fact that the market would eventually turn around.

Peter