Let's Be Frank, Actually My Name Is Peter...

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Posted By: Darren

I also collect rocks, insects, and leaves.

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Posted By: John

“Kevin--they don't get it—“

Not sure what I’m suppose to get? Kevin really hasn’t posted anything other than nebulous posts, eluding to some mysterious stuff going on. What am I supposed to draw from these kinds of posts Jim???

People post all over the Internet that we are visited by aliens every day Jim, without proof of some sort I’m not going to start looking for little green men…


“What was the quote by one of our mutual friends--if people knew what you know and it got in the wrong hands it could bring down the hobby as we know it today--something like that.”

Enough with the secret squirrel crap already, do you have something to add to better the hobby/protect us or not? The question applies to both of you? If you don’t then all you have is conspiracy theory’s..

Who really killed JFK?
Did Hitler live after the war?
Alien Autopsy’s in Roswell NM?

And now…..

The ”Of course I know you are legit.” Theory…yawn.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Wonka

How can you dispute the alien theory and Roswell, New Mexico? Here is proof....one of 74 home runs --- without steroids!




m

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I can't be fooled by a forgery. Or a trim job. And I too am legit - in fact, too legit to quit collecting high grade vintage cards. But I am scared. Very scared. Hold me.

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Posted By: John

Not sure I’m convinced Max, look closely at the photo under hi-res analysis it seems to be a little green man there, and his hands seem to be calling the shot to boot!

Explain that, this whole thing may go deeper than we thought!!

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Posted By: Max Weder

John

I think you're seeing things....

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Posted By: Kevin

"Enough with the secret squirrel crap already, do you have something to add to better the hobby/protect us or not? The question applies to both of you? If you don’t then all you have is conspiracy theory’s.."



Aggressive and somewhat insulting, yet not surprising at all. Matter of fact it was expected...what took you? Would it be preferred that these subjects be avoided?

Your answer in the form of a question; Would you now, knowing what you've seen, buy a ghost, blank back or other error card without at least considering the possibility it might be altered?

It's not all doom and gloom. It's more like "be careful" and "watch out" because the area of alterations is not just about cards being trimmed and recolored.

Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Kevin, no one was insulting you. The board just expects some specificity instead of innuendo. That's not asking a lot.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Kevin- I'm sure it is possible for many altered cards to go undetected, but you make it seem like nearly every card out there is tampered with. Collectors might as well just throw in the towel. Frankly, I don't think it's true. Do you see anything good in the hobby? And please don't say I don't want to face the truth, or something to that effect. That is not a defense of an argument.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

You are right--it is to be expected. Thats the kind of treatment you get here by some.

If you have serious topics concerning restoration you are better off just talking about them on LTS although as a members only board you don't get the wider audience.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Some people are just ahead of their time and simply cannot be understood by mere mortals. I think Brian Wilson wrote about it on Pet Sounds, "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times." Dan? Oh Dan?

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Posted By: Joann

Actually, if Kevin has serious topics regarding restoration he will get a great reception if he posts them here, not on some members-only board.

He has shown some interesting before-n-after scans, but really has only accompanied them with generic warnings. I'd love to see this kind of post with a step by step explanation of what was done (not in detail as to turn it into a tutorial on card doctoring). I'd also really like to hear him ring in on some of these misprints that show up on ebay or even here, and let people know if he thinks they are natural misprints or doctored, and why. Right now all we really have is some interesting scans accompanied by "now do you dare buy?" kinds of commentary.

By all means post serious restoration topics here.

Joann

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

From everything I know, he is as knowledgeable as anyone about restoration and perhaps even more so.

Kevin, if you are still paying attention that is what happens on Net54. You bring up a serious topic--get ridiculed--and then someone calls on u-tube and posters talk about music.

At least you said you were not surprised by it so you were warned over the treatment you would get here.

I do plan on calling you--

Jim

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Posted By: Joann

I don't have the slightest doubt about his knowledge. Not one bit. I'm just wishing he would share it in a slightly different, maybe more targeted, way.

Joann

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

Par for the course--a real expert has something highly value added to say--despite being "warned" that this would happen, he feels insulted by the ridiculous comments of a couple of posters.

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Posted By: Jason L

I'm starting to hope for a meltdown of confidence, a massive Ebay failure, and the collapse of one or two grading companies. Maybe collectors will be forced to meet at more frequent shows...

Look, the only reason this crappy topic keeps coming up is because collectors who can afford to keep paying up for the rare, high-end stuff are becoming increasingly paranoid about the integrity of their product. As long as the prices stay high, the incentive to forge product is there, and the paranoia is justified. Learn your product better than anyone, stick with your tight trusted circles, and then stop worrying so much. The doomsday what-ifs have become absolutely intolerable. You people are going to kill yourselves with worry at this rate.

Peter, if the market falls, the people who care about the value will sell out and walk away...that's really all there is to it

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jason, bingo! Fear is quite the motivator.

Somehow I suspect Kevin has thicker skin than perhaps some of the more delicate people who post on the board. I mean it would be almost physiologically impossibble for him not to have thicker skin.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- Kevin is not being ridiculed by anybody. Some are asking him for more specific information, some are questioning why he continues to post the same thing every time, and I have asked him if he sees positive things in the hobby, too.

If you feel he is correct that such a large percentage of cards are altered, then you must feel this impacts your own collection.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I love it ---learn your product--ha ha--I suspect Kevin could put 10ncards in front of most of you--5 altered, 5 okay and most would have a 50/50 chance of guessing whether it had been altered.

Sorry Barry--those of you who try to pin this on the high end collector protecting his investment are overlooking the substantial alteration of mid grade pre war cards. Seriously Barry--you have a lot of mid grade graded cards in your auction--how many do you thing have been altered?

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Posted By: dennis

"I suspect Kevin could put 10ncards in front of most of you--5 altered, 5 okay and most would have a 50/50 chance of guessing whether it had been altered."
jim would the 10 altered cards be in slabs? it's hard to see when their in the plastic.

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Posted By: John

Aggressive Kevin, perhaps no more aggressive/ dangerous than this comment. Are you bragging to us, or warning us???


“I am a collector and card doctor...albeit an honest one. All my work is either with me or in "very trusted hands" and will not enter the hobby.”


Do you have first hand knowledge of the stuff you post about above Kevin or don’t you? Not aggressive just a simple question and if you do and don’t want to share it with us, why post at all?? Seems pointless, to point out things we cant protect ourselves from since the people who have this all-powerful knowledge can and I quote…

“They are the ones that try their best...and do a good job. As proven, an advanced card doctor can get almost anything by. If it can't get by then I'm sure almost anything can be completly created. “

“Ah, but can you tell when an old card has been made to look newer then artificially aged? I can't and neither can the best graders in most cases.”



“Would it be preferred that these subjects be avoided?”

No it would be preferred that you actually tell something useful vs. countless innuendo and vague speculation.

Kevin, not out to get you but so far you’ve posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs. You’ve admitted you’re a card doctor with vast amounts of knowledge and your buddy Jim has eluded that you could use this to you advantage.


"What was the quote by one of our mutual friends--if people knew what you know and it got in the wrong hands it could bring down the hobby as we know it today--something like that."


You even admit you doctor cards and that these cards will never see the hobby or some unsuspecting schumck’s collection, I am to believe this how??

If you’re trying to build creditability to help the hobby, and you have knowledge, which could do so. That’s very admirable, not sure the way you presented yourself so far has helped your cause if in fact that’s your cause at all?



"Aggressive and somewhat insulting, yet not surprising at all. Matter of fact it was expected...what took you?"

And please the martyr schiidct is a bit played out at this time be careful most of the time there is only enough room on a cross for one, not sure Crandell has room for you up there at this time.


So how about it? Are there any artists in the house? I would like to commission the 12 stages of Crandell’s suffering via Net 54 mural at this time, please let me know.

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Posted By: Frank A.

Kevin's 2005 SMR article about 1991 Desert Shield forgeries is quite impressive.

It would be even more impressive if all of the info had not already been published a decade earlier in Beckett.

What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game.

Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously.

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Posted By: John

“Sorry Barry--those of you who try to pin this on the high end collector protecting his investment are overlooking the substantial alteration of mid grade pre war cards. Seriously Barry--you have a lot of mid grade graded cards in your auction--how many do you thing have been altered?”

Jim, are you implying Barry has altered cards at auction right now?? Sounds like a hint. Any proof of this or is this? Or is this another Crandell red herring??


But seriously I love you Crandell, nobody makes me laugh harder. Even Grigori Efimovich Rasputin didn’t take himself as seriously as you take yourself.

And Jim relax Rasputin is a historical figure and is long been dead; he didn’t trim any of your cards or my entire armpit collector mid grade ones either…or did he……..

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Posted By: Adam Smith

"What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game.

Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously."


Right on both accounts. Kevin has not shown us a thing. Everyone wants to be a big shot.

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Posted By: cmoking

John, you wrote: "Kevin, not out to get you but so far you’ve posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs."

Have you read the other threads that Kevin posted in? I've met and talked to Kevin several times in person, and he has shown me some issues with cards that have been eye-popping. Its tough for me to separate what he told me versus what he wrote on N54, but if I recall correctly, he did post some other stuff in other threads that you and others may find interest in. Maybe those other posts aren't enough for you either...I'm just saying your statement "so far you've posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs" is not true for his N54 posts as a whole.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

"What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game.

Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously."


Not true, Kevin knows alterations. Like King said, check out some of the other posts.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172121989/last-1172686539/Ghost+cards
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172653652/last-1172686539/even+more...

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Posted By: John

Cmoking if your going to quote me please quote me correctly please…

“Kevin, not out to get you but so far you’ve posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs. You’ve admitted you’re a card doctor with vast amounts of knowledge and your buddy Jim has eluded that you could use this to you advantage.”

I stand by that quote; I also saw the other posts with pictured cards with various jobs etc. Perhaps I’m wrong but Kevin never really goes into to detail on any of the posts I have read, if anything he posts and leaves it open to speculation.

What’s the point of it all? To make us all paranoid or educate us?? I’m not questioning his ability as card doctor or knowing methods of card alteration. I’m merely questioning the point of all this brining things half to light with broad statements and images. Is this going somewhere or not? If you cant tell us what to look for and we cant tell for ourselves due to the quality of your work and others as stated below by Kevin himself, then what the hell is the point and where is he heading with this? I think those are fair questions???

“They are the ones that try their best...and do a good job. As proven, an advanced card doctor can get almost anything by. If it can't get by then I'm sure almost anything can be completely created. “

“Ah, but can you tell when an old card has been made to look newer then artificially aged? I can't and neither can the best graders in most cases.”

Right now Kevin is not coming off as an educated hobby defender but more like a guy on a street corner with a billboard that says “The End is near!!”

Also the only scary thing so far that Kevin has brought to light are comments he’s made about his own skill, openly admitting he’s a card doctor who could fool us all. I’m the only one who finds that odd, that someone would brag so openly about this???


“I am a collector and card doctor...albeit an honest one. All my work is either with me or in "very trusted hands" and will not enter the hobby.”


“If I was unleashing fraud (knew someone to say it...thank you), I wouldn't post about it and am quite sure no one would ever know. Enjoy your card as it is, a mystery to all!”

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Posted By: cmoking

I don't think I made a mistake. I quoted the relevant portion.

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Posted By: George Dreher

<I also collect rocks, insects, and leaves.

My wife said there was a mental patient that had a booger collection on their wall and it wasn't framed.

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Posted By: Kevin

"Kevin- I'm sure it is possible for many altered cards to go undetected, but you make it seem like nearly every card out there is tampered with. Collectors might as well just throw in the towel. Frankly, I don't think it's true."
_____________

I am a collector first and deep commitment the hobby. Most cards are not altered and reside in the correct holders if graded. Based on experience I estimate about 15% in slabs have been altered. Don't throw in the towel but do have a general idea what your getting for your buck. The end is not near but the subject is as important as any other.

Many have a specific specialty; mine just happens to be identifying alterations and is what I can offer the hobby and (maybe) this forum. Before and after pics are appropriate for the alterations I've been showing. Details and more targeted step by step explanations could only hurt the hobby in an open forum...sorry. Not bragging at all, "awareness" is what I am offering at this time.

As for Jim, I've only met him briefly once. Sure, we will talk soon in detail but at least his comments on this subject are accepted for what they are. Not saying I'm a card doctor regardless of the reason, would be hypocritical, it's the unfortunate part of getting to know the subject at hand. It would be like WonkaTicket stating he's is not confrontational .

____________

"Kevin's 2005 SMR article about 1991 Desert Shield forgeries is quite impressive. It would be even more impressive if all of the info had not already been published a decade earlier in Beckett. What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game. Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously."

Frank Alston, that entire post was simply uncalled for. I'm embarrassed for you and feel it's a shame you find the need to express those horrid comments in writing. Adam Smith you are not far behind. I'm no big shot and don't plan on being one. Both of you are obviously the bigger men...literally.

That SMR article was a request by PSA to go beyond what had been written in Beckett and reintroduce the subject to new collectors. Both are different. Dare I say I've written several others? Please show us what either of you have written so that we may all enjoy the benefits of your educational topics. I'm certain we will not be disappointed.

___________

"I'd also really like to hear him ring in on some of these misprints that show up on ebay or even here, and let people know if he thinks they are natural misprints or doctored, and why."

This is exactly what I can do and would be more than happy to share what little I know.

In person, I can go into more detail. Poor King (cmoking) once got a 2-hour class on card trimming.

Have a good evening!


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: John

Kevin,

My apologies, I’m really not trying to be confrontational at all. Its just it seems every week for the past months we have been presented with lots of speculation and innuendo about the hobby being destroyed, trimmed altered etc. Were all a bit tired of the constant conspiracy theory stuff, or at least I am.

While most of this stuff is all news worthy, most of it if not all of the things that are brought to light are done so in a very cloak and dagger manner with very little fact or proof behind them. This makes it hard to believe or do anything about it. Also certain individuals have made it their personal soapbox agenda, which further ruined any good intentions behind the cause of cleaning up our beloved hobby.

I understand all to well the fact it wouldn’t be prudent to go into step by step detail on altered cards and how there done. I also appreciate your inputs on bad cards being highlighted by yourself. But unless your superman, you cant be with all of us all the time.

How then do you suggest we protect ourselves from this epidemic you speak of?

What things should we be on the lookout for?

What are the common tell tale signs of altered cards?

Are there things we can do to help us spot altered cards?

Have you taken steps to offer your services to grading companies?

These are just some of the things others and I are asking for your input on. If you can’t give us guidance on some of the above, and all we can talk about are broad statements and photos, all you have succeeded in doing is making collectors paranoid.

Just one collector’s opinion. Balls in your court Kevin.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Jim- I wasn't dodging your question, I just shut off the computer early at night.

How many mid-grade cards do I have in my auction that are altered? While I can't say with absolute certainty, if I had to guess I would say zero. There is nothing special about them to suggest any have been tampered with. They have some corner rounding, some light creasing, a few nicks here and there...they are what they are. If someone altered them, I'll tell you one thing- they are no better off now than they were before!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Funny.

Some think I am a buffoon and Kevin is a clown that plays with bleach Ha ha. Its amazing how much in the dark ages some are on this board.

If some of you would take any time to learn you would see that Kevin is an expert and know ns more than most of you combined.

If he chooses to share his wisdom here you are lucky.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We agree that Kevin is knowledgeable and does have much he can teach us.

But I think the problem we all have is that he is approaching this as a doomsday scenario. According to Kevin, no collector should trust anything he or she sees, that every card in the hobby is potentially tampered with.

If that is the case, I suggest everyone stop collecting baseball cards and take up a new hobby, such as collecting balls of string, or playing shuffleboard. Those seem like safer venues to me.

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Posted By: Bill

I think this would be, and could be, a great topic to be discussed on this board. As Kevin stated, going into extreme detail could potentially be harmful as there are always a small few who could use the information for the wrong reasons, understood. However, Kevin coming forth and stating that he would be more than willing to share at least some information is something that I know I, as well as others I am sure, would greatly appreciate. For that, I thank you Kevin.

As far as Jim goes, I really don't understand why you post on the board at all. I come on the board to read threads and learn more about the vintage world, quite a few post great information and knowledge. There are others, however, who seem to be the ones who ruin this board for everybody else. I do not see you posting much on this board. However, the threads I have read, and the posts you make, come off as highly juvenile. Your posts portray yourself as an arrogant person, intent on belittling everyone on here. If you have such a problem with people on this board, why do you bother to come here at all and ruin it for others who like to share their knowledge or are trying to learn about vintage cards? Maybe this is not your intent and you do not believe that you come across this way. However, this is exactly how it sounds.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sorry Bill--I don't know you but feel free to attack me--it makes you one of the boys here...and I like it.

Barry--exactly--anything(lets just say most things) can be altered--if Kevin for fun can get cards past the graders I think anything is suspect.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Peter's thoughts about an investors crash in the T206 market.

Hmmn, as much as I'm not for it, it does have some merit.
All the investors in denial will panic, and seek financial safety elsewhere.
If the investors decide to part with whatever is left of their dwindling portfolios, I'm sure that the collectors will extend a hand, and show an out pouring of their warm hearts.
We'll even purchase the plane tickets for our brothers and sisterS of the Collectors Investors in Denial.
Then, you will see a celebration that will dwarf the celebration called El Cinco de Mayo, to "Putting the (H) back in the Baseball Card Hobby.

It's a win/win situation for everybody.
The marketeers can go back to reading their Wall Street Journal.
The collectors can go back to talking about baseball cards in whatever collector condition.

All kidding aside,we love you poor misguided folks.
If you can handle the crash?
Stick around, and we'll teach you how to enjoy, and have some real fun with the cards.

Double Hmmn.
Peter, or is that Frank? .. comes out of the closet.

In another thread, I was discussing the mindset difference between the sicko collector and the investor in denial.
Peter claimed to be both, an investor and a collector, I thought otherwise.
Today in this soul searching thread, he comes out.

"Well if the prewar stuff dropped then the modern card market would probably follow. I would stop collecting both."

Peter

OK Peter,
Now look at the audience and say: "I am not smarter than a fifth grader"
-------------------------

Jim C. two things:

(1). ... "Kevin,

I owe you a call. I do want to speak with you-- sorry.

Don't post anymore Kevin--people will think you are serious."
*
*
Jimbo, if I didn't know any better, I would have funny thoughts about the above.

(2). ... Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy have been away for many years.
Stop trying to lip sync Kevins words.
He can handle, and speak very well for himself.
--------------------------

"Only enough room on a cross for one"
I Luv that line.

John W,
Those are good questions for Kevin, and I do believe he wants to help.
I don't know Kevin, but he sounds like he knows his area.
I'm just a collector also, but when you lay down a lot of bread for some cardboard, and then you find out that it might not be kosher. ... you'd be surprised how intense your drive and determination to learn all about that card is.

I studied it, and I had what almost looked like a war room.
I just didn't study the card, I connected all the dots, and crossed all the T's.
I went to Danny Dupcek store "Fantasia" several times in up State, NY.
A comic and baseball cards store with autograph T206'S in his display case.
Connected names to other deals with him.
Talked to the District Attorney inhis area.
Discovered a network connected to Flint MI, that included a dealer and some people interested in the altering scheme.
This was in 1990, between Memorial Day & Labor Day.
Without seeing the card, Lew Lipset was the one that gave me the clue that it might not be good.
He had heard about it from a major collector that also fell for it.
I went to the Parsippany NJ show, and happen to mention it to Mastro, he recommended Herman Kaufman to represent me, I couldn't have asked for better, we became strong friends.
Got in touch with Bob Lemke, I told him the story, and he was extremely helpful.
It was a delicate situation for him, because Fantasia was also an advertiser in SCD.
Got in touch with Larry Fritsch, because he owns two Doyles and I knew that he would have an interest in Doctor Koos work.
John Tish, a dealer and friend from the Onionta and Cooperstown area was involved, and Mark Macrae from the west coast came on board.
All the while I'm studing my real Slow Joe Doyle, the two un kosher ones from Dr. Koos, common Doyle's NY and every T206 Nat'l that I could look at.
I was looking at the type fonts, ink colors and the constant of the T206.
I got my money back, but the kicker was the national in Texas.
We found a dealer from mile high that got a Magie from a dealer from Flint MI.

Mile high took a long time in believing us, and never even thanked us when he got his money back.

Flint MI. was expecting more booty being brought in by his son from Flint MI.

The dealers that I know are nice people.
Instead of looking for cards for my collection, I spent most of the time talking to dealers, telling them about the Koos work and trying to point out what to look for.
I kept a couple of pointers to myself for a good reason.
I knew the story was going to be getting out.
I saw no sense in letting the Dr. know what to cure.

The sad part about this is, I was hoping that the dealer at the show would pick up the banner and slam Dr. Koos, but that wasn't the case.
As a collector, I won my fight.
Except for LEW LIPSET - MARK MACRAE - HERMAN KAUFMAN - JOHN TISH - FRITSCH and LEMKE, the others let Danny Dupcek escape, and come back to haunt them and the collectors later.

I'm not an expert, but never mess with a person from Spanish Harlem. ... he can become a blood hound in seconds flat

John W. ... stay well.
Kevin S. ... welcome on board ... front and center, and let's get the bastards.

Joe P.

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Posted By: Bill

Many people here have no idea who I am because, as I stated, I come on here to read threads and learn more about this great hobby.

If you feel my post was an attack, my apologies. As I said at the end, maybe you don't intentionally come across a certain way, however that is how it comes across. In any event, you still did not mention why you come to the board if you have such a problem with everybody here. Oh well, to each his own.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joe--"lets get the bastards"--my sentiments exactly.

Bill--why? To expose all of the card alteration/restoration that is being done and get the hobby to rise up and say "we are not going to take it anymore" except for a few committed souls here, there has been a collective yawn.

Have not given up--just pushing it through other venues.

Interesting that perhaps the number one expert in restoration comes on here and is called a buffoon or a clown or whatever--all I am saying is that is the treatment you get here when you bare trying to expose a major problem.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- could you please share with us the names of the people who called Kevin a buffoon or a clown? I don't know where this is coming from.

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Posted By: leon

Why is it always "Net54's" fault? What did this web hosting company ever do to anyone? Answer- nothing !! I get so sick and tired of hearing this crap...and the crap about nothing is ever any good on this board anymore and no one posts anymore. If you said anything like this then you are obviously in the river in Egypt, called "De-Nile"...We currently have the most, and best, board members I have EVER seen, INCLUDING the FullCount days. I thank everyone for that...including the folks that talk smack about this board...I appreciate hearing criticisms...It's part of anything we do.....I think Kevin has enlightened us quite a bit, Jim C is obviously worried about his cards, and most of the rest of us don't care. I do care about altering and bad things in the hobby but like to talk about the good stuff even more. It's just a few thoughts I figured I would throw in...Getting back to topic if the bottom fell out of the market I would be both disappointed and happy. I would definitely still be a collector.....more than ever.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I would be happy to--always fun to watch Net54 people eat their words.

Frank A.--"only a buffoon like Crandell would take this Saucier clown seriously"

Frank A.--"hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a bigger game"

Adam Smith--"right on both counts"

I suspect that is all we will here from these two jokers--ha ha.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Can see I did not convince you of my motives--I am trying to do something good for the hobby--expose and get rid of card alteration which affects ALL collectors.

Why else would I continue to publicize something that can only hurt the value of my collection.

Cheers.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

Sorry, but I just don't believe that if you collected the pr-ex cards that most of this board collects, you would be as interested. I am not and most others aren't. Don't get me wrong, I do think it's important....just not as much as you. You are more than welcome to your views and to continually express them.....You have continually stated you don't come onto this board to make friends, which I do, and does disappoint me a little. To each their own though. Also, for the record, how many times have I asked you to stop posting what you think? (answer should be 0)........I would like to see you post something, sometime, about what the rest of the board is interested in too. I am not trying to be hateful but you are somewhat of a 1 pony show, and it does get a little old....again, no disrespect meant....regards

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

I drove the highest post counts in the history of the board--or at least since I have been looking at it--anything I post about draws a lot of responses. People weren't interested in my Mastro thread??? I believe that drove a record number of responses.

If you want to have people post about what other people care about pick those with 5 or less responses--there are a ton of those this year--don't believe I have had any though. I am sure there are some regular offenders who post about those pesky obscure sets.

Also do not believe I have continually said I am not on the board to make friends--probably once--what I am interested in is discussing serious hobby issues--and there is none more pressing than the restoration of cards. Do not disagree that the majority of the board has little interest in serious issues though--although I do think you are sincere when you say that you do.

Best regards,

Jim

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Posted By: cmoking

Leon wrote: "Sorry, but I just don't believe that if you collected the pr-ex cards that most of this board collects, you would be as interested. I am not and most others aren't. "

I wonder why collectors of poor to EX cards don't seem to care. Would these collectors care if someone cracked a SGC Authentic holder with a trimmed card only to send it in and have it come back as SGC 40? This just happened to me. It's probably a $200 card in SGC 40, but a $50 card in SGC Authentic. Would you care about your the extra $150 if you were buying that card? I know I would. (don't worry, it won't be going into the marketplace). Would VG-EX collectors care that two PSA 4 T206 cards were previously in SGC Authentic holders and are most likely trimmed (i.e., SGC got it right, PSA got it wrong)? If these collectors don't care, then maybe they won't care whether I list them with full disclosure or no disclosure. I'm guessing they'd rather have the full disclosure.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

In an abrupt downturn it is actually the first to sell that are in the best position. They may have sold at a profit and have nothing to lose. As the market continues it's drop, they can take their sweet time in deciding whether they want to buy back in. Others sweat.

Peter

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Posted By: leon

Please don't take my response out of context concerning caring about alterations of lower grade cards....I believe you left out the next part of my quote....

"Don't get me wrong, I do think it's important....just not as much as you."

thanks
leon

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Posted By: John

King, what can you do? You make good points, but you and I know it’s the game now. Dealers submit trimmed cards over and over hoping to find a weak link in the system, sometimes it works and these cards end up in a holder.

I’ve heard first hand stories from dealers themselves that have heated discussions/favors pulled from grading companies to get a certain card in a holder. Its going to happen, and will continue to happen.

Once thing that amazes me is the on site grading, as long as companies allow themselves to be in close proximity of the submitter there just seems too be to much a chance for bias/influence. They will swear up and down it doesn’t go on, but I have to wonder.

So how do you stop it??

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

There's too much room for abuse. Look at it this way, in order for the grading companies to make money, they can't pay the graders that much. Maybe 10 - 15 dollars an hour. Are they really going to spend extra on having a separate security system to make sure the graders don't cheat for their friends.

The people who submit their cards stand to make maybe an additional $500 if they recieve a better grade on a nice prewar Hall of Famer. However, the grading company will make the same 10 bucks either way. The person submitting the card has a much higher incentive to try and influence the grader. Since the grader isn't making all that much, he may listen.

Peter