Ebay Selling Experience...

[Clutch-Hitter]

I sold a 1933 Goudey Dizzy Dean PSA 3 on 10/2/2011 and it arrived at the buyer's residence on 10/6/2011. Today, I received this message in my ebay messages:

"Hello, I received the dizzy dean card that I ordered from you, but the item is not as described. On the page it was listed as like new, with all facets intact and flawless. I examined the PSA card case upon receipt and noticed evidence of tampering, including, white frosting in color along the top and upper right side of the case. The plastic pins appear to have been replaced with dabs of glue. I will gladly pay for the return shipping, but I can't take a chance on a card this expensive. Thank you."

Would a criminal even do this to a card for this price and wouldn't the grade contradict the card's appearance or be inauthentic if a criminal tampered with the PSA case? I HATE the idea of tampering and/or misrepresentation.

I replied:

Dear sai81,
"Tampered PSA case? Are you saying I tampered with that PSA case? Calling me a criminal? Glue? You're kidding right. You may send it back, and I'll refund your money once I receive it and find that it is in the same condition I shipped it in. I'll be glad to have that card back."

This was the listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230669106381...84.m1559.l2649

The card:

[GasHouseGang]

You said:
"Would a criminal even do this to a card for this price and wouldn't the grade contradict the card's appearance or be inauthentic if a criminal tampered with the PSA case? I HATE the idea of tampering and/or misrepresentation."

The short answer is YES. Unfortunately, I think you're about to get your card case back, cracked open, with a reprint in place of the card you sent to this guy. I hope I'm wrong, but let us know what you get back.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Well crap, I haven't even thought about from that view point yet, was wondering if a seller would do that with a card in this range. The whole dang thing doesn't make sense. He'll pay return shipping and call me a criminal at the same time? Thank you?

[glchen]

Did the buyer have a lot of feedback or just a few?

[Clutch-Hitter]

sai81 (27)

twenty-seven total and none for a while until October 1

[glchen]

It's looking bad for you as the previous poster stated. There's a decent chance that the buyer will be the one who will be tampering w/ your card and claiming that you did it. Hopefully someone else will chime in w/ some advice, but you might want to post this question on the PSA boards. There are a lot of ebay sellers on that site who often give advice for things like these. My first thought is to contact ebay support and see what your options are here. Not sure if there is something better to do.

[alanu]

I hope you get the same card back.

A couple of years ago I had the same thing happen with a card I had just gotten graded with PSA, fortunately, I received the same card back. I always assumed the buyer thought he could flip it quickly for a profit at a show or with someone he knew, and then when it didn't pan out wanted to return it. Hopefully something like that is the case here too.

-Alan

[GemMintAuctions]

Best case is he actually thinks this case may have been tampered or he just has a case of buyer's remorse. Worst case is you're dealing with a scammer who wants your card for free. If he paid you through Paypal and files a SNAD claim, he'll get his money back either way and all you can do is hope that he sends you back your card in the condition that you sent it out in. Based on my experience, I think you'll find ebay customer support less than helpful if this guy decides to rip you off.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks for the help, apparently this isn't a new thing. Man, I'm hot!

Gary, where should this be posted on PSA's forum; I've never used it? Thanks

[iggyman]

Call me naive, but I think you will get the same card back. Looks like a case of a buyer who is over analyzing things and really believes the case has been tampered with (or is just not happy with how the card looks). In my experiences, scammers tend not to be so polite and don't know diddly about third grade grammar. In this case, I believe you will be just fine.

Lovely Day...

[Cy2009]

Greg,

If I were you, I would open up his package in front of the Postal workers in your home town. Also bring a camera to take a picture of it immediately. By doing this, you have a federal worker there to vouch for you if the buyer is trying to scam you. So if he did switch the card, you have an impartial federal worker to back you up on the PayPal appeal.

Hopefully, none of this will happen. But you should at least be prepared.

Cy

[bobbyw8469]

I like the way the card looks. If you have any interest in selling it to me for what the scammer....err...I mean "bidder" paid, then please pm me!! By the way, how much did he pay?

[smtjoy]

I agree big time with Cy, make sure to open it in front of your postal carrier. that way if by chance it was sent back empty then you can go after him for fraud.

I do think its most likely the buyer just wants to return the card, years ago before I decided to have a no questions asked refund policy I used to get odd request like this a lot, and it was just what people were having to say to get an ebay "not as described" return. The funny thing was once I added a return policy I stopped getting these and on top of that my number of returns dropped by a lot, odd but happy about it.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by iggyman

Call me naive, but I think you will get the same card back. Looks like a case of a buyer who is over analyzing things and really believes the case has been tampered with (or is just not happy with how the card looks). In my experiences, scammers tend not to be so polite and don't know diddly about third grade grammar. In this case, I believe you will be just fine.

Lovely Day...

Thanks Iggyman. My primary problem with this was being labeled a criminal by someone on the other side of the country. But yeah, I hope to get the same exact card back. He's been buying PSA graded cards since 10/1/11, so if he's received them, he can simply look at those holders and note the same characteristics on the PSA holders. My better half made a similar comment: he bought the card and is manufacturing an excuse to send it back. The card is VG; it's not a poor weaseled into a 3 holder. And there's nothing wrong with the holder (except it's PSA and not SGC, right?).

Having said that, you're comment does indeed make sense.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Cy and Scott,

Good idea. I would not have thought of that. Thanks

[hangman62]

I get the whole story, ...what bothers me..and I see loads of ebay sellers do this...they somehow select a "standard statement discription " ..that always reads.." Card is Like New, no blemish's, ...blah,blah... problem is ..they are selling a VG Mays or Mantle....Why do they allow that statement to be made....I realize that all you need to do is look at the scan and see its a VG Mays...but that statement should not be inserted on page

RalG

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by hangman62

I get the whole story, ...what bothers me..and I see loads of ebay sellers do this...they somehow select a "standard statement discription " ..that always reads.." Card is Like New, no blemish's, ...blah,blah... problem is ..they are selling a VG Mays or Mantle....Why do they allow that statement to be made....I realize that all you need to do is look at the scan and see its a VG Mays...but that statement should not be inserted on page

RalG

Yeah, I don't know. I guess it's defaulted to "like new" because I never change that. The case was fully intact when it left here. I've already changed my listings to "very good." The PSA case was like new, so I'm not sure what to go by. It's just a mediocre, unfounded excuse for a refund I guess. PSA cases arrive from PSA with the minor unavoidable scratches, and I think I know what he sees as far as frosting because there's some on most PSA cases, no matter how long ago they were slabbed. The glue comment was silly.

[egbeachley]

Condition: Like New: An item that looks as if it was just taken out of shrink wrap. No visible wear, and all facets of the item are flawless and intact. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

[tbob]

That ebay item description which ebay foisted on all sellers is worthless, idiotic and often totally irrelevant. And yes, it does default to like new or new (I forget which) so if you are listing a PSA 3 card and making sure you get the scan right, the price right and the copy right, you might forget about that annoying condition tab.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by tbob

That ebay item description which ebay foisted on all sellers is worthless, idiotic and often totally irrelevant. And yes, it does default to like new or new (I forget which) so if you are listing a PSA 3 card and making sure you get the scan right, the price right and the copy right, you might forget about that annoying condition tab.

Yessir, good point.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Condition: Like New: An item that looks as if it was just taken out of shrink wrap. No visible wear, and all facets of the item are flawless and intact. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

Yeah, I definitely understand your point with that, but the guy went above and beyond by claiming the case was tampered with. If it was minor wear, you and I would probably say so what, it's just the case, but I realize that's important to some people. Look at any PSA case close enough and you'll find a blemish.

But point taken. I noticed other people he bought PSA cards from had ---- for the condition. I'll remove that ebay characteristic altogether, never paid attention to it and now realize it's nothing more than a snag. Can't the same thing happen if "---" is listed or "very good?" It's all about articulation, of which the buyer will certainly prevail.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Golf History]

I think you are may just dealing with a overly paranoid buyer. Judging just by the scans you posted here and the ones in the listings the top right of the slab does appear lighter or frosted. It is likely just an anomaly from the seal.

[Clutch-Hitter]

I changed the few I have listed to "acceptable." It's strange because selling a card inside a TPG holder can be viewed as two different items, one of which has an existing, presumably trusted condition rating. The item with the trusted rating is easily the most significant of the two, yet many view the other as equal. Buy the card not the holder, right?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Golf History

I think you are may just dealing with a overly paranoid buyer. Judging just by the scans you posted here and the ones in the listings the top right of the slab does appear lighter or frosted. It is likely just an anomaly from the seal.

Yessir, the case is fine, but a buyer could find something on any case when he's not looking at the card. And the fact that what he's alleging may be present in the scan indicates he didn't look at it before buying. These cases are fine, but like you said, a paranoid person may see something that isn't.

[D. Bergin]

I try to default everything as "Used" in the Ebay specifics and note actual condition in the listing with great big scans.

The Ebay condition specifics are completely useless for collectible sellers.

Hopefully you don't get a cracked open holder back. If you do I encourage you to share the buyer ID with the board so others can block him from their auctions..........as Ebay is unlikely to do anything about it.

[slidekellyslide]

I think to reiterate what another person said above..open this package in front of the mailman or post office employee. I think this guy is trying to screw you, and he's using the "Like New" as his excuse to get his money through paypal and keep your card.

[glchen]

This is what I typically use for the Condition on the ebay listing when selling:

Acceptable: Authentic - Poor (A to 10/1)
Good: Fair - Good+ (20/1.5 to 2.5)
Very Good: Very Good - Excellent+ (40/3 to 70/5.5)
Like New: EXMT - NM+ (80/6 to 86/7.5)
Brand New: NM/MT - Pristine (92/8 to 100/10)

If the card is raw, I try to map it to what it would approximately grade above. Qualifiers I might nudge it down, depending on how severe the qualifier is.

[pclpads]

Useful rule of thumb: "the lower the FB rating (27 here), the greater the moron factor you will have to deal with."

[YankeeCollector]

I USUALLY SAY...NO RETURNS ON GRADED CARDS.....AND I THINK U WOULD WIN YOUR PAYPAL CASE AS LONG AS YOU DID SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION ON CARDS OVER $200. You delivered a PSA 3 card. What more can you do? Unless, your scans were deceiving which they dont seem to be.

[Clutch-Hitter]

I mailed it fully insured with signature confirmation, but I do not have "no returns on graded cards" in my listings. Good idea.

Gary, Dave, Dan, Dave F, Jim...thank you for the information. Gary, BTW, I got a little lost on the PSA message boards.

The buyer said (wrote) that he's inexperienced and found information on how to determine if a PSA holder had been tampered with, adding he found such evidence on the holder he questioned. He said he didn't intend to accuse me of tampering with the holder (someone else?). He said he still isn't sure the card is authentic, but he will keep the card and resell it. He read this thread after I messaged him the link and felt I "turned it around on him." The purpose of sending the link, which I did immediately after starting this thread, was to invite him here for a discussion on this topic. I thought the invitation was nothing more than cordial.

Therefore, the buyer has an authentic '33 Goudey Dizzy Dean in VG condition, fully sealed in a PSA 3 holder. The Dean is one of the tougher cards in the set IMO.

And that is where it stands at the moment.

PSA holders will accumulate scratches, even if handled carefully. SGC and Beckett holders are awesome!

I just noticed that one of the top vintage card sellers (and one of my favorites) just bought one of my Goudeys. Great hobby!

[GemMintAuctions]

Originally Posted by YankeeCollector

I USUALLY SAY...NO RETURNS ON GRADED CARDS.....AND I THINK U WOULD WIN YOUR PAYPAL CASE AS LONG AS YOU DID SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION ON CARDS OVER $200. You delivered a PSA 3 card. What more can you do? Unless, your scans were deceiving which they dont seem to be.

This may have been true in the past, but nowadays ebay/paypal is siding with the buyer in even the most ridiculous SNAD disputes. A lightly scratched or frosted PSA case would be more than enough for paypal to grant the buyer a full refund upon receipt of proof that a package was delivered back to the seller (delivery confirmation for items under $250, signature confirmation for items $250 or more).