Herpolsheimer's....

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

E121

-Al

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Posted By: leon

Don't make me......

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Posted By: Zinn

Thanks Leon. This stuff is way over my head.

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Posted By: Dave F

It can get confusing. The one we are looking for is this one below - (care of FKW's website)

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Posted By: Anonymous

Frank,

To quote:

"Say they were fake.... why would someone only make one of each fake?"

Why wouldn't the person make one of each? He would have a one of a kind item to brag about and offer for sale. Now, am I saying that that the guy I spoke to in Pittsburgh was the same guy who printed the cards?

No.

The conversation never went that far. I am placing this group in the same category as the Kendig Chocolates. I did handle one of the cards when I was at this gentleman's table.

Do I regret not buying the cards?

No.

My only guess is-and this is a WHOPPER-is that some collector with printing experience figured he'd make a one time run of these cards using whatever photographs were available to him. Obviously some photographs were not on other cards. The wet transfer on some of the cards would be evidence of how the run was sorted and dried.

I, again, have to come back to my original conclusion that these cards are fakes. What other motivation would the seller have in making his statement to me? Who sets up at a show to lose money if there is a chance the cards are authentic?

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Posted By: fkw

Brian, If you handled one of the Herpolsheimer cards there is no way you would compare it to a Kendig's, they are nothing alike as far as the paper stock, print quality, and design.

The Kendig's and Opie Dildock cards are on a thinner flimsy card stock, photo quality on front is darker, the stock is yellowish, and the back printing is stamped on in a fake washed out looking purplish ink.

The Kendig's/Opie's fakes are not even based on E121's. They are really reproduced E135's with the card numbers on front removed (design change), so the caption font (E135 style) is totally different compared to any E121 group card like the Herpolsheimer's.

If you actually handled a Herpolshiemer card in person I cant see how you can NOT think it was authentic.

Where did (and why would) this mystery card faker get one of the 2-3? known 1921 D350-3 Dave Davenport cards to use in his fake Herpolsheimer set? Thats one rare card to locate to make the set . Why not use one of the other common card found in E121-80.

I wish I had a raw card to scan a super close up picture of the print, but all 10 of mine are graded by SGC or PSA and my scanner sucks on focusing on slabbed cards.


Maybe someone can super closeup scan a Herpolsheimer card

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

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Posted By: Anonymous

Frank,

I handled one card. I thought the quality was good.

I thought the gentleman's honesty was better.

The Stock card is a perfect example of what the gentleman was asking for on the card.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"some collector with printing experience figured he'd make a one time run of these cards using whatever photographs were available to him."

Joe D, you need to get something off your chest?

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Posted By: fkw

Keith's Stock card is a good example.
If you have good eyes, and look closely at one in person you will see very small chips to the surface layer along the edges of some of these cards just like any midgrade E121 card, it would be very tough to find that E121 type of card stock with that smooth porcelain like surface both front and back. Even the fake Kendig cards have a slightly rough matt finish like surface (looks like spray shellac) thats totally different from the E121s.

Also, the caption on front (for each of the 68 cards) would then have to be painstakenly duplicated exactly....... with the exact same font, spacing of letters, etc. The faker would NOT be able to rescreen the whole card because there would then be print dots in the border. He would have to crop the photo part of the card then add the thin black line around the photo and then try to recreate the caption, and thats just the front of the card.

And why not make 20 Ruth's and even a few J.Jackson cards (Jackson is found in the Holsum set).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Brian, did it ever occur to you that the person you met at that show just assumed they were fake? And sold them as such?

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Posted By: leon

When you have handled thousands of E121-like cards (I say W575-1 but they are similar) you get to know the "feel" of them and the patina that is on them. I have never seen the uneven gloss faked good enough to fool someone that is very experienced. There is no doubt in my mind that these are real....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It's been three hours since I accused Joe D of fabricating these Herps -- with still no response. It's fairly clear to me that as we speak Joe is running towards a Greyhound bus with a satchel full of Herpo printing plates under his arm.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Joe's too busy to respond - I asked him if he'd run off a few Goudey sets for me so I could raise some cash for auction season.

The likelihood of duplicating exact images and typeface, creating a "fake" back for a store that happened to issue cards in 1916, and including all the subtle variations mentioned above in this thread, and doing it well enough to fool every expert who's looked at the cards, are about the same likelihood as a bunch of collectors sitting around in 1950, running off undetectable fake Piedmont Wagners and Goudey #106 Lajoies. That is to say zero.

Remember, not only are these cards PRINTED on the back (not stamped), but they're machine-cut. So somebody would have had to produce a cutting die that could cut fake cards exactly the same size and style as traditional E121s.

It would be different if it was a completely different set, something that's never been produced before. But when you compare Jeff's Herpo Cobb to my Henry Johnson Cobb, the fronts are exactly the same, the images are exactly the same, the card stock is likely the same.

I can't imagine there's any conceivable way that these could have been faked.

-Al

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I'm no e-121 expert, but that Milton Stock card looks more like a w575-1 to me. I have not seen rough edges on three sides of an e-121 before. Are they all cut this way? Seems to me that if this was some sort of prototype or "unique" set, they should all be cut VERY similarly.

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Posted By: dennis

would the black lite test prove these to be real???

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

Heres my Henry for comparison.

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Posted By: leon

I believe these are W575-1 as I have always stated before but I know most others think they should be classified as E121. No big deal...If anything else other than W575-1 they would technically be H-Unc as "E" is "E"arly candy cards and H is for advertising trade cards. Burdick didn't get the ACC perfect but he did a great job with what he had. I think the Stock card's edges are an anomoly though as most of the other cards do have clean edges. regards

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Posted By: fkw

They are similar to W575-1A but they have players that are not in that set so you cant really saw they started off in sheets with the same makeup as W575-1A.

Id guess they might have the exact same players as the very tough 1921 D350-3 Standard Biscuit cards but it will be tough to prove since there are 12 cards missing from the Herpolsheimer set, and only 15 of the 80 cards have been checklisted from the D350-3 set. But they are the only 2 sets that have Davenport and thats the key