T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set survey....MISSION COMPLETE

[tedzan]

The CYCLE 460 cards were printed and issued (late 1910) prior to the AB 460 cards (1911). The CYCLE 460 backs
are found on most of the 109 possible subjects. Whereas, to date, we have only confirmed 70 of the possible 103
AB 460 cards. I don't expect that we will find too many more AB 460 cards. The reason being, that the Red HINDU
cards (issued in 1911) appear to complement the AB 460 cards in the total run of the 350/460 and 460-only series
subjects.

Why American Litho. printed these 2 backs in this manner is a mystery to me. Do you guys have any ideas on this ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Are you saying that from your research you think a card like Herzog will only be possible with a Red Hindu or AB 460 back?

[cfc1909]

that is correct Tim -not both.

[tedzan]

To date, Herzog (Boston) has not been found with either AB 460 or Red HINDU.

Anyhow, Herzog is a card in the 460-only series, and may be found with both AB 460 and Red HINDU
backs This "mutually exclusive rule" does not apply to the 48 cards in the 460-only series.

FYI....The 460-only series has its particular "mutually exclusive rule", that is between LENOX and Red
HINDU brands.

The Herzog card you are interested is found with a LENOX back....therefore, Herzog will NOT be found
with a Red HINDU back.



Jim....ole buddy....sorry to disagree with you.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

I keep throwing in the 460 only cards-I did that the other day with the Crandall when we were talking about this rule. I have to watch that...

I have Herzog with Lenox and Cycle 460-no Red Hindu or AB 460.

[tedzan]

Since Herzog (Boston) has been confirmed with a LENOX back, Herzog will not exist with a Red HINDU back.

Hence, there is a chance that Herzog was printed with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back.

I haven't seen one, yet....but, that doesn't mean it's a No-Print.

The hunt continues......with the exception of Kleinow (Boston), I expect that eventually we will find all 47
cards in the 460-only series with AB 460 backs.


TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Ted
Thanks for the post on the Lenox/Red Hindu information. Lots of help.

[tedzan]

These kind of "rules of the (tobacco) road" are very handy for several reasons, two of which are......

It takes the guesswork out, when searching for certain front/back combos since you know if they exist or a No-Print.

Questionable front/back combos (re-backed cards) are quickly identified.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

OK, one more round in trying to find the missing AB 460 cards. There are 28 subjects from the 350/460 series
that have not been reported with the AB 460 back. Applying the AB 460 vs Red HINDU "mutually exclusive" rule,
we narrow down the number of cards from the 350/460 series that possibly were printed with the AB 460 back
to these 6 cards. See if you have any of them......

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


And, from the 460-only series 43 cards have been reported with the AB 460 back, these 4 are still needed......

Frill
Herzog
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Please check out your T206's one more time to see if you have any of these 10 cards with an AB 460 back.

Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Deleted

[tedzan]

Thanks to Jim Rivera, I now have Conroy (bat) in my AB 460 sub-set. I still need the following 3 cards
to have a complete run of the 70 confirmed (to date) AB 460 cards.

Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Jennings (two hands)
Oldring (bat)



Now, there still remains a good probability that any (or all) of the following 10 cards will be found with
an AB 460 back


From 350/460 series

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


From the 460-only series

Frill
Herzog
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Any help confirming any of these 10 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.

Also, I would appreciate any help finding the above 3 cards for my set.


Thanks,

TED Z

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

The PSA Population Report reports one example of Herzog (Boston) with American Beauty. It is a PSA 1.

Since Herzog (Boston) is a 460-only subject, this example would have to be AB 460.

We all know PSA makes its share of labeling mistakes, but it seems unlikely here.

Merry Christmas.

Scot

[batsballsbases]

Ted,
Im really not a T collector but I was going thru a box and found these 2 cards. Cobb is very rough 460 back. And A card I didnt see on your lists Mcginnity Newark,With an american beauty 350 back with a frame? I posted 2 scans . Al

[tedzan]

Al

Thanks for your post. This survey lists only the AB 460 cards. There is another survey that we did for the
AB 350 (frame) cards (in which your McGinnity is listed).

If you would like to sell or trade your Cobb with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back, please email me at.......

tedzan11@comcast.net


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks very much....Herzog makes it 71 confirmed AB 460 cards, to date.

Indeed, Herzog (Boston) is an AB 460......and, that leaves us with only 3 remaining 460-only series subjects to
be confirmed.

I'm pretty certain we will find these 3 (Frill, Merkle and Murray) eventually. As for the 10 (or so) 350/460 series
subjects, I'm not very certain we will find them.

Scot......a very MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and your family.


TED Z

[batsballsbases]

Ted Email sent. Al

[tedzan]

From the 460-only series......

Murray (portrait) has been reported with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back. This card raises
the number of confirmed AB 460 cards to 72.

Still unconfirmed from this series are these two......

Frill
Merkle (throwing)

However, It's my guess that Frill wont be found with an AB 460 back, since he was sold to
Jersey City (Eastern League) on July 13, 1910. The AB 460 cards were printed circa 1911.

Merkle exists with a UZIT back; consequently, there is a low probability of finding Merkle
with an AB 460 back. Only 5 cards (of 48) from the 460-only series exist with both AB 460
and UZIT backs.


Now, regarding cards in 350/460 series........

There still remains a good probability that any (or all) of the following 6 cards will be found
with an AB 460 back

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


Any help confirming any of these 6 (or 8) cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

TED Z

[Blunder19]

Figured I would show the cobbin its new SGC holder.. Im happy enough was there for it to get a 10... SGC said its the 1st cobb batt off AB 460 graded with them.. happy to add it to my slowly growing collection...

[batsballsbases]

Hi Jamie,
Please enjoy the card and Im glad it was able to at least get a grade!

[tedzan]

Hey guys....still looking for these 8 cards with AB 460 backs.


Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Frill
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Merkle (throwing)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)

Any help confirming any of these 8 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I am reprising this thread, one more once......I fully expect that we are near completion of this rare T206 sub-set, thanks
to 3 1/2 months of responses and based upon the mutually exclusive factors (of T-brands in the 460 series) that've been
presented here. We have accounted for 72 - AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards. So, we are left with 31 subjects that appear
to be AB 460 "no-prints".





UPDATED list......72 confirmed AB 460 cards


350/460 Series..................27 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................45 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


One more go around....If any Net54er poster's, or reader's have any AB 460 cards that are not listed here,
please show and/or tell us about them. Or, please email me at......
tedzan11@comcast.net


Thanks much,

TED Z

[tedzan]

A Net54 reader has reported Merkle (throwing) with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back. This increases the AB 460 sub-set
tally to 73 cards.

In my opinion, these "dudes" are much tougher than their current ranking in the T206 "back scarcity" list.

Still lookiing for more AB 460 cards.....Thanks in advance, for your responses.


TED Z

[quinnsryche]

Here's my only AB 460.

[tedzan]

Tony

Thanks for posting your AB 460 Ford.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey guys....we now have 73 cards confirmed with AB 460 backs; and, we are still looking for these 7 cards
with AB 460 backs.


Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Frill
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)

Any help confirming any of these 7 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

TED Z

[B O'Brien]

Nothing new here, just a chance to show the three that I currently have, two of three from the Board. AB 460 Marquard, AB 460 McGraw Glove, and Mr. Camnitz.
Bob

[tedzan]

Thanks for posting your AB 460's.

That is a great looking Harry Camnitz card.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Show us some more of your AB 460 cards


Always looking for more AB 460 cards.


TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Nice group Ted, that Smith is nice front/back combonation.
These are my only two.

[tedzan]

Thanks for showing us your AB 460's.

I find it very interesting that certain subjects are seen quite often, while others in this series are extremely rare.

The most often see are......

Burch (fielding)
Devore
Ford
McGraw (glove at hip)


TED Z

[frohme]

What else? Not at the level of Bob's Camnitz or the other nice cards in this post, but 4 of the 5 AB460 Pirates.

Anyone have a spare Camnitz hands over head?

[B O'Brien]

Mike,
That Howie took the ride to SGC today, if it comes back like I hope it will, we can work out a deal. That one doesn't really blend in with my little box of beaters.

I like that, henceforth, the collection shall be know as "Bob and his little box O beaters". That has a nice ring to it!

Thanks,
Bob
upperhandisforemost@yahoo.com

[ethicsprof]

Ted, ole buddy
i've exchanged some recent emails with Bill Brown re: super set and found out he just now has 100 different ABs.
have his data been coming your way?
just checking.
best,
barry

[tedzan]

I have checked with Bill. No new inputs to add to the 192 cards in the AB 350 (frame) series, nor the 72 cards in the AB 460 series.

Thanks for asking, ole buddy.

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

I had a feelin' that you had but wanted to make sure---after i heard Bill B.
say he had 100 now!!
great work, Ted.
all the best, ole friend

barry

[tedzan]

Hey ole buddy, you have to keep checking up on me. I depend on you to keep me honest

Here's some more AB 460's




T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Let's see some more of these AB 460 cards.

Also, looking forward to seeing some of you this weekend at the Philly Show. Jim Rivera and I
will be set-up at Booth # 408.





TED Z

[cfc1909]

what no Conroy with the bat AB 460?

[tedzan]

Conroy will be in the next group of AB 460 cards.

Thanx ole buddy.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Well, I've either cornered the market on most of these AB 460 cards....or, they are much tougher
to find than most of us have thought they were.

I'm reprising this thread in hopes of finding a few more AB 460 cards.

Thanks for participating,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey Jim, since you asked, here's the Conroy and 5 more AB 460 cards........




TED Z

[tedzan]

Six more AB 460 cards



TED Z

[tedzan]

We have a new input to add to the list of confirmed AB 460 cards....."double-O". Orval Overall (yellow sky) makes it the 74th AB 460.

Although, I've been searching for this one for 4 years, I predicted that Overall would eventually appear with an AB 460 back. It is a
350/460 card that exists with a UZIT back. And, if you recall in one of my earlier posts that I noted that 350/460 series T206's were
printed with both AB 460 and UZIT backs.

It is really a great feeling when you are proven correct on certain aspects of this Monster, for you begin to think that perhaps you've
got the Monster by its "horns".


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

With the latest discovery of "double-O", we now have accounted for 74 - AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards.
So, we are left with 29 subjects that are possible AB 460 "No-Prints".

Orval Overall (yellow sky) with an AB 460 back.








UPDATED list......74 confirmed AB 460 cards


350/460 Series..................28 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................46 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


If any Net54er poster's, or reader's have any AB 460 cards that are not listed here, please show and tell
us about them. Or, please email me at......

tedzan11@comcast.net


Your inputs are greatly appreciated,

TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
Nice Overall..... He is one of the tough AB 460's or I would already have a copy.... Congrats.... Be well Brian



PS I need to read thru all of the "rare back" threads that you and Jim have started.... It appears that the number of back collectors has increased a ton since we started posting on the board...

[FUBAR]

That overall is a great card. When i do start my T206 collection, those are the types i want, nice eye appeal cards.

I would guess the back collectors have increased as it is somewhat easier then the 525 cards of the set...

I know when i start, it will be a few select cards based on who the player is, a set of backs, and then cards with great eye appeal. Im not even going to attempt the 525 unless the lottery fairy visits

[tedzan]

Hey guys....we now have 74 cards confirmed with AB 460 backs; and, we are still looking for these 6 cards
with AB 460 backs. However, as I see it (and explain it) 5 of them were not printed with an AB 460 back.


Dougherty (arm in air).......possible Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding).... ?
John Frill.........................reassigned to Jersey City (Jul 1910), therefore most likely an AB 460 No Print
McIntyre (Brkln & Chi).......exists with Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print
Murphy (bat)...................possible Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print
Reulbach (no glove)..........possible Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print

Any help confirming any of these 6 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated. Let's see if you can prove
me wrong ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Net54 reader's have emailed me with confirmed inputs of Dougherty (arm in air), Elberfeld (Wash-fielding), McIntyre (Brooklyn &
Chicago), Murphy (bat), and Reulbach (no glove) with BROAD LEAF 460 backs. Therefore, applying my "mutually exclusive" rules
for cards in the 350/460 series (as these 5 are), I do not expect to find any of these 5 cards with AB 460 backs.

As for John Frill, since he was reassigned from the Highlanders to Jersey City (July 1910), I imagine that his card is most likely an
AB 460 No Print. As, the AB 460 cards were printed in the Spring of 1911.

We've confirmed that there are 74 cards printed with AB 460 backs; and, I feel 99% confident that this is a complete run. As a
consequence of this survey we now know that there are certain correlations between 4 of the rare T206 backs. It is apparent
to me that the AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed concurrently (circa 1911), as the fronts of these two backs exactly coincide.

Furthermore, the BROAD LEAF 460 cards are from the 350/460 series and they share the exact fronts with the Red HINDU cards.

Finally, it has become obvious that cards in the 350/460 series with AB 460 and UZIT backs are mutually exclusive with the cards
with BL 460 and Red HINDU backs.

Understanding these front/back combo patterns are very meaningful to avid collectors of T206 sub-sets, player and/or team col-
lectors, etc., as they remove the guesswork in search of certain T206's. Also, in this era of re-backed T206's, one can instantly
determine if a front/back combo is legitimate by having this specific knowledge.

This has been a great 5-month ride. I want to thank all of you, who have contributed to this on-going survey these past 5 months.

TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted great work. Really enjoyed this thread.

[tedzan]

Thanks guy....we have the "MONSTER" by its horns....

Best regards,

TED Z