Heritage Auction

[thekingofclout]

True or False. Guilty or Innocent. Damage control on a board of 2200 members should be the least of their concerns...

[baseballart]

Jimmy

A google search shows the lawsuit was started in May 2009 and amended in September 2009.

Here's a link to an article with heritage's response

http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index...ltants-lawsuit

Max

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Jimmy

A google search shows the lawsuit was started in September 2009.

Here's a link to an article with heritage's response

http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index...ltants-lawsuit

Max

Max. I forgot to hit the quote option from the last post from the original poster. I think I'll take it down in order to clarify that point.

[Heritage Sports]

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Auctions

In May 2009, Gary Hendershott, a dealer in Civil War memorabilia and U.S. Western historical objects, issued a civil RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) lawsuit against Heritage for violating several Texas state laws. Amongst Hendershott’s allegations were that Heritage utilized shill bidding to increase prices, and that the Heritage failed to pay him commissions for the auction sales he had facilitated for the firm. Heritage vehemently denied the claims, terming them an elaborate ruse by Hendershott to avoid paying his bills. "Basically, it’s the plaintiff’s lawyer trying to wage a PR war to force us to the table to settle with his client, who owes us well over a million dollars.”[22]

Hendershott’s lawsuits have been dismissed, without prejudice, by three different judges, and remanded to arbitration."[23][24][25]

In early September 2009, a similar RICO complaint was filed against the firm by Chris Kortlander, a businessman from Montana who had once hired them.[26] On September 25, 2009, all of Kortlander's claims were dismissed with prejudice.[27]

On September 16, 2009 Heritage filed a motion asking for sanctions against Hendershott and his attorneys for misconduct.[28]

On September 30, 2009 Heritage filed a lawsuit against Hendershott and his attorneys alleging defamation and civil extortion.[29]

On April 7, 2010, Judge Solis of the US District Court entered a permanent injunction commanding Hendershott and anyone acting on his behalf to remove from the Internet all previously published false, misleading and/or disparaging statements regarding Heritage and enjoining them in the future to desist from making or distributing such statements.[30]

The RICO lawsuit and all claims against Heritage were also dismissed with prejudice.[31]

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't like what Heritage does with their bidding on lots but it's open and transparent and legal. In the scheme of things, this is as good as it gets in the auction world. I do think that the condescending tone is really uncalled for, however. Why are auctioneers so condescending? You'd think they'd just invented the AIDS vaccine or something.

Jeff -

I like Heritage and their auctions - but reading their first response - I was left with the same feeling. why be condescending?


"The distinction is so clear to us, and to most people within the hobby, that perhaps we have failed to spell it out in its simplest terms. So, if you’ll allow me, here is the difference between Heritage’s policy of placing house bids, and the illegal practice of shill bidding:"

[glchen]

gordonanalytic:

I know you're understandably upset about this situation and about how you've felt you've been treated by Heritage. However, at this rate, you're probably going to be banned from the board, and deservedly so. You are only further supporting the opinions on why Heritage banned you. Take it was a lesson learned, and the next time you purchase a expensive auto, make sure that there is an LOA from JSA or PSA/DNA.

About the latest Heritage posts, to be frank, I still dislike house bidding. Jonathan mentions that even if they win the item, they have to pay the 19.5% BP. However, who gets that BP? Heritage, of course. Therefore, with house bidding, Heritage is at an advantage even if they win the item. And that "7 day rule" as far as I know, is not written into the Heritage terms and conditions. If it were, I would feel better, because then I would know not to start bidding until 6 days before the auction and just take the current bid as the reserve. I still think that major auction houses should follow REA's standard of excellence, where there is not even the slightest hint of impropriety.

[calvindog]

Jonathan, far be it from me to offer such a humble guy like you some advice, but perhaps Wikipedia is not the best source to be citing when noting litigation results. Second, as per your Wikipedia entry, I noticed that the lawsuit filed by the guy from Montana was simply removed to arbitration. I'm guessing this was done due to the contract he signed with Heritage which held that any disputes would go to arbitration and not a court. I've checked Wikipedia and I'm unable to find out what happened with that litigation; perhaps you can shed some light on this.

[Rob D.]

"Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information."

-- Michael Scott, The Office

[Matt]

Not to distract from the interesting legal discussion on the table currently (Rob - that might be the best pop-culture reference on topic I've seen in a while), but I'd also like one other question answered:

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

The issue is not when the bid was placed, although placing the bid early without knowledge of any other bids on the item is an important distinction, the real issue is the intent. We are placing a bid at which we are willing to pay for the item. Shill bidders are bidding on material with no intention of winning or paying for the item, simply with the intention of pushing up the prices. If we win the item, then we pay for the item with the buyer’s premium included and most importantly: The consignor is paid for the item at settlement.

Thanks for responding. You said you pay the BP on lots you win, thereby removing any advantage you would have in the bidding. Who do you pay the BP to?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Matt

Who do you pay the BP to?

The right hand, of course.

[Bridwell]

When I won a card last year, they charged me a 19.5% buyers fee and also 8.25% sales tax since I live in Texas. If their 'internal' bidder bidding against me wins the lot, does he pay the sales tax? Usually if an item is being bought by a wholesaler for resale in Texas, they can agree to waive the tax. From my point of view, the 'internal' bidder at Heritage may have an advantage of 27.75% in bidding against me.

[benjulmag]

As I see it, Heritage is in fact "paying" a BP for items it buys itself even though it is paying it to itself. The reason is opportunity cost. Say it buys an item for $10,000. The BP would be $1,950. And say the underbid was $9,500. The BP for that underbid would be $1,852.50. By buying the item itself, Heritage is forgoing that $1,852.50. That forgone BP is a real cost to them, an opportunity cost in economic parlance. Even though it is real, though, it is less that than the BP a non-Heritage winning bidder would be paying. In the example I give, Heritage's BP is 18.525% ($1,852.50/$10,000). So they do have a bit of a competitive advantage over the underbidder. If Heritage really wants to make this clean from a PR perspective, they might consider remitting the $97.50 to the consigner. That way, via the $1,852.50 BP "paid" via opportunity cost and the $97.50 extra paid to the consigner, they really are "paying" the full BP.

[Matt]

One other point - the "intent" argument is slippery. You contend your intent is to win the lot which is what differentiates it from shill bidding, where the intent is to drive up the price. While I don't doubt you would be happy to win the lot at the wholesale prices you are bidding at, I'd imagine that the fact that if you don't win, the bid was driven up, isn't a terrible consequence from your perspective; your consignor is happier and you take in a higher BP. I'd also suggest that a shill bidder has a price that he'd rather have his item back at then sell it, in which case, his bids seem similar to what you are doing.

[Clementefan]

As someone who has spent his second career in mediation and arbritration trying to get warring parties to an acceptable peace may I put in my two cents as per the Heritage - gordonanalytic situation. I find that cooperation and cooler heads leads to productive results. A couple of points:

1. "A teaspoon of honey helps the medicine go down."
I find that with animated/agitated people like gordonanalytic that the best approach is to cool them off. Like putting ice in a cup of hot coffee.
This can be done with a simple "I am sorry, what can we do for you...?" as opposed to what allegedly was reported..."if you escalate the matter then we will no longer do business with you." That sounds like an ultimatum.

It is a fact that patients who get along with their doctors are much less likely to sue them for medical malpractice. The same with customers and retail establishments. If the customer feels that the retailer has listened and offered some help then the angry customer tends to cool off. On the other hand, an angry customer will no longer do business with the retailer and will tell many other people about his/her poor treatment.

The retailer loses the customer's business today and tomorrow. And the retailer could lose business from the customer telling other people about his poor experience with that firm. On the other hand, the customer loses the utility/value of having done business with the retailer.

In other words, a "lose - lose" situation. No winners, just losers.

The way to create a "win - win" is to find out what each party can agree upon.

Is the issue money? reputation? respect?
Perhaps people from the board can offer an opinion.... How much would a fake Mantle signature affect a 1953 NY Yankees team signed baseball? A few hundred dollars ? I don't know. But it cannot be too much money.
With that dollar amount there must be some creative way to resolve the matter.
Jon - is gordonanalytic a repeat customer... with 200 (?) emails it would indicate that he/she has done business with Heritage.
gordonanalytic - what exactly are you looking for?

2. "Everyone gets dirty when mud is being slung around."
gordonanalytic - repeatedly badmouthing the retailer will not help the situation. Think about it... if someone repeatedly insulted you would you be willing to work them to a satisfactory resolution. Probably, possibly unequivocally... not.

The same behavior applies to the retailer,.... Jon. Stating something like "200 email messages" is a convenient round number which implies exaggeration. It is meant to discredit the customer, but in fact it indicates lazy research. How many of the emails were in response to a question from the retailer?

Anyway, everyone looks bad with bickering...

[Duluth Eskimo]

Why are we allowing "Gordon" to continue this smear of Heritage? Although a little bit smart-a$$ at first, Jonathan was very up front about the whole matter. Gordon is just upset that they do not want to auction his item. SO WHAT! Do what everyone else does and take your business someplace else. Furthermore, why let someone like Mike Gutierrez affect how you feel about your item. I personally think Gutierrez let's many outside issues affect his judgement on items. Not to mention that he used to be employed by Global. I saw many things that were (IMO) no good pass through Global when he worked there. I choose not to do business with him or to him. Why not just let the water pass under the bridge and move on. At no time did Gordon dispute any of Heritage's claims that he has been harassing them. That is out of line, PERIOD. He is acting like they stole money from him or something. I believe it is time to move on to ANYTHING else.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Why are we allowing "Gordon" to continue this smear of Heritage? Although a little bit smart-a$$ at first, Jonathan was very up front about the whole matter. Gordon is just upset that they do not want to auction his item. SO WHAT! Do what everyone else does and take your business someplace else. Furthermore, why let someone like Mike Gutierrez affect how you feel about your item. I personally think Gutierrez let's many outside issues affect his judgement on items. Not to mention that he used to be employed by Global. I saw many things that were (IMO) no good pass through Global when he worked there. I choose not to do business with him or to him. Why not just let the water pass under the bridge and move on. At no time did Gordon dispute any of Heritage's claims that he has been harassing them. That is out of line, PERIOD. He is acting like they stole money from him or something. I believe it is time to move on to ANYTHING else.

If it's time to move on why did you bump the thread that wasn't being posted in anymore? Andrew (gordonanalytics) and I had a discussion off line and I think he got his rant out. I let him know that the whole forum(s) weren't going to be his playground for very long. At the same time I had to be congnizent of not squelching someone's right to talk about a hobby related issue. It's a fine line but someone has to draw it. You can PM me if you want to discuss it anymore, or if you really want to, you can post in this thread and keep bumping it, contrary to your request. As for Mike Guiterrez, he has always been very nice to me and I like him personally. I can't really comment on any of the other stuff as it's out of my spectrum of collecting. I don't know enough about autographs to know good from bad so stay away from them. If I were going to collect them it would be confined to me getting them in person or getting them on legal documents. regards

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Why are we allowing "Gordon" to continue this smear of Heritage? Although a little bit smart-a$$ at first, Jonathan was very up front about the whole matter. Gordon is just upset that they do not want to auction his item. SO WHAT! Do what everyone else does and take your business someplace else. Furthermore, why let someone like Mike Gutierrez affect how you feel about your item. I personally think Gutierrez let's many outside issues affect his judgement on items. Not to mention that he used to be employed by Global. I saw many things that were (IMO) no good pass through Global when he worked there. I choose not to do business with him or to him. Why not just let the water pass under the bridge and move on. At no time did Gordon dispute any of Heritage's claims that he has been harassing them. That is out of line, PERIOD. He is acting like they stole money from him or something. I believe it is time to move on to ANYTHING else.

I understand. So let's rant about what you perceive to be as an unfair smear of Heritage while at the same time you trash Mike Gutierrez with vague accusations? You should teach a Logic class somewhere.