SGC grading of this card?

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Posted By: leon

First of all I think there is no doubt that the consensus on this board is that SGC is the most consistent grader of vintage cards and I would agree with that. However, I am not sure I agree with my good friends on grading this one. It was cut down to size on all 4 sides. I guess it's a technical issue but I wouldn't think it would be different than an All Star Baseball card that has had the All Star cut off of it, which they won't grade. This type is in the 2006 SCD, on page 145, as 1910 E-UNC..I do think there needs to be a better standard for grading this type of card, strip cards and other cut outs, in general..thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-E-UNC-CANDY-Honus-Hans-WAGNER-VG-EX-SGC-50_W0QQitemZ8758317106QQcategoryZ57993QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

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Posted By: honus3415

This does appear to be a perfect example of the dilemma that the grading of a hand cut items creates.

In my opinion, no item ever sized after it left the factory should ever be graded anything but "Authentic".

This includes all strip cards, candy cards, fro-joy, advertising pieces and the like.

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Posted By: zach

I really don't think that should be graded anything other than authentic. These cards usually come in the same shape the Wagner is in, four borders but I have seen a Mathewson with what looks like the full side of a candy box and then the cards were cut from it. So the cards were obviously hand cut from some type of candy box or something similiar to a candy box, maybe some kind of candy wrapper ? I say this because they are made on a thin rice paper so seeing a box able to support a piece of candy made out of just rice paper doesnt seem possible. Either way these are hand cut cards, what they were cut from, a candy wrapper or thin panel of a candy box is unknown, but I do believe this is a perfect situation when the authentic grade needs to come into play.
BTW can anyone add to this checklist of known examples ?
Christy Mathewson
Honus Wagner
Cy Young
Johnny Evers

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Posted By: WP

In the SCD catalogue it is a little ambiguous whether or not the diamond is part of the card. They did labal it as such.

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Posted By: fkw

to ad to your checklist

Ty Cobb
Ed Collins

It seems like 9 out of 10 of these are cut like the Wagner. I have only seen maybe 2-3 with the diamond, and only the one pictured in the SCD that was with the extra stuff around the diamond. They are rare, but a strip like card and should be graded "authentic" (like any nonfactory cut card).

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Posted By: zach

Ahah, thanks. I should have check SCDs checklist before posting mine.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The thing I find most interesting is the notation on the label of the Toy Town stamp. I woudl assume they will do this with any card the stamp.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: barrysloate

In my last catalog auction I had a Matty that my consignor brought to SGC before he sent it to me and they wouldn't grade it because it was hand cut. The borders were no worse than this one. To grade one and not the other sets a very bad precedent. It shows a lack of consistency, as well as their having no real policy in place. Either both should have been graded, or neither.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I have discussed the use of the authentic label with SGC in another context a few months ago. I was told that one of their priorities is creating some specific guidelines regarding cards slabbed authentic. I believe that they recognize the problem and are working to fix it.

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Posted By: identify7

IMHO: no adult in 2005 has the right to criticize nor evaluate the choices, asthetics, nor the talents of a kid's actions nominally 100 years ago. These items are a valued part of our Americana. As such, the differences among each example is something to be appreciated.

Imposing a value system possibly applicable to a manufacturer, on a kid, infers a jurisdiction which is inappropriate.

Im sorry friends. I do not feel that graded slabs belong among these unique items of our history. And any lust for an alternate authority's judgement is misplaced when dealing with these treasures. Yes, encapsulate them for protection.

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Posted By: tbob

I agree with Barry 100%, how in the world can you grade this (and even give it a "Toy Town" credit on the label, that's weird)and not grade one of the many, many T212-1 1909 Obaks which have no frameline on the back and are handcut. They wouldn't even grade them as "authentic." Makes no sense...

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Posted By: barrysloate

You almost get the feeling they graded this Wagner in error, and that if they had the chance to review it again, they would reject it.

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Posted By: Kyle

Perhaps its a fake? Doesn't the label, particularly the cert. number look a little funky?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I believe the card is real, and in fact it's a pretty desirable card at that. I just feel it doesn't meet SGC's minimum standards for what they will grade. I just think they goofed. They are still the best grading company though.

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Posted By: Kyle

I meant to say maybe the holder is a fake, or the card was swapped out somehow. I do think it looks like an authentic card...

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Posted By: Josh K.

I dont think the card or the holder are fake. However, what is really surprising (and so far overlooked) is the grade - how does it get a 50 when it has a stamp on the reverse? The highest grade a card should be able to get under their scale is a 30 if it has ink or pencil markings.

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Posted By: Richard

If we can set aside the number grade vs. auth argument for a minute, I believe that SGC grades this card on its merits assuming that no stamp is there and then puts "toy town" on the flip as sort of an overprint qualifier. The same thing would apply if PSA was grading a card with a stamp on the back. If the card were VG without the stamp, PSA would grade it a 3 (mk).

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Posted By: Richard

By the way, Toy Towns are the best!

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Posted By: Josh K.

I have to disagree. If the card were one that has a known overprint, that is one thing. This is simply some collector who put toy town stamps all over his cards. Its not an overprint, its a mark. PSA grades normally and puts MK qualifier on it. SGC does not grade in that manner. The mark is considered as part of the technical condition of the card.

Richard - if you look at their grading scale, the card could be a 100 w/o the mark and it shouldnt receive any better than a 30 with the mark (this is also how they treat paperloss). This may be a poor example since the defect is on the front, but this card would be a 50 or 60 w/o the paperloss. Yet it doesnt even merit a 20.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I will also put this to a test - I just recently sent sgc a very nice t206 cy young with an "RS" stamp on the back. I guarantee it comes back no better than a 30 despite it being originally graded a PSA 4(MK).

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Posted By: Richard

Ba humbug.

I think it is a fine line between overprint and simple stampings.

Couldn't you argue the same thing about Niagara Baking? Maybe some bored employee sitting in the bakeshop one day back in 1910 taking the company stamper and stamping the back of some scrap baseball cards, making sure his stamper still had some ink.

So is that a legitimate issue? or is it an e101 that should grade no better than an SGC 30?

Edited to say SGC 30 rather than SGC 20 based on Josh's last post.

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Posted By: Josh K.

The difference is that a Niagra Baking stamp is an advertisement - not a stamp that came in some kid's game. While we may never know the motive behind a particular stamped advertisement (ie advertising or making sure the stamp had ink) we do know that many blank back cards were intended to be used for advertising (and left blank intentionally). The wagner is cut from a candy box/wrapper. Not the same.

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Posted By: Wesley

Niagara is in the ACC. Toy Town is mentioned in the Standard catalog. I think SGC appropriately graded these cards notwithstanding the stamps but with notation there is a stamp.

RS is in neither the the ACC or Standard Catalog and I agree you will get no better a 30.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I think toy town is mentioned in the ACC only because of the shear volume of cards that were stamped by the particular collector(s). The other main difference is niagra baking (to my knowledge) only occurs on one particular type of card. Toy towns are on everything under the sun, much more random and much less likely to have been "issued" intentionally.

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Posted By: Richard

The e101s that Niagaras are on were not blank backed. The stamp is placed on the card as it was issued - the card was not issued blank backed specifically for advertising purposes.

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Posted By: Wesley

Overprints are not a part of the actual printing process, so there is always ambiguity as to when the stamping occurred. Who knows when Blomes Chocolate, Niagara Baking, or Old Put really stamped the cards? If I recall correctly from the standard catalog, Toy Town was a game issued in the early 20th century and it is estimated that the cards were stamped in 1910. Most people are confident that the stamps mentioned above including the Toy Town stamp are period. I think that is the difference between the overprints mentioned above and the "Property of Wesley" or "RS" ownership stamps that are likely not to be period. Toy Town obviously was from a game and not a company trying to advertise it's product. IMO the way SGC notes the stamp is fine and creates no confusion about the technical grade of the card.

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Posted By: Josh K.

If that is the case, I want my rs stamped cy young graded a 50 with an "RS Stamp" notation on the front - doubt it will happen though.

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Posted By: Richard

In addition, to date, no one has ever been able to produce a "toy town" stamp or the childrens game that it supposedly comes from. How can you be certain that this is the definitive origin?

Also, the fact that toy town stamps are on multiple issues seems to mean, to me, that whoever stamped the cards was nondiscriminating. Whoever stamped the Niagara cards was less enterprising. Wouldn't you want to advertise on as many different issues as possible?

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Posted By: Josh K.

since no one has definitively determined the origin of the "mysterious" RS stamp, I guess it should be treated consistent with the toy town stamp?

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Posted By: Richard

Josh - it's probably just you, in a drunken stupor, marking your cards and forgetting what your initials are.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Damn, you found me out.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Richard, youa re wrong that a Toy Town game has never been seen. A complete one missing only the stamp (go figure) was sold recently. I am sure there are others out there, but since most of look maily for cards and not toys or games, it isn't likely that we see it as often as it actually turns up.

My m101-5 Thorpe has a stamp on the back. I now want my Thorpe regraded so it can get the 30 or 40 it deserves instead of the 20 it currently has. This is certainly a major gaff by SGC to note the Toy Town stamp on the label and grade the card as high as it did.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Josh K.

finally someone has enough common sense to agree with me

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Posted By: Josh K.

btw - since I have never seen it, where on the card does the niagra baking stamp appear? is it reasonably centered and if there are more than one, are they usually in the same or similar location like the majority of overprints Ive seen or does it (they) show up all over the place (ie not in a consistent location) like I believe is the case with toy town stamps? The former would indicate intent while the latter would indicate a kid playing with his stamp - much in the same way my 3 year old daughter likes to color on the back of my business cards.

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Posted By: fkw

Here is a scan of a Niagara back taken from an old auction catalog.





Here is a "Toy Town Post Office" stamp (from kids toy set) for anyone who hasnt seen one.

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Posted By: Josh K.

if you read the niagra stamp, it references the card - it is obvious that it was a promotional overprint. There is no reason to believe that was true in the case of the toy town stamp.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I submitted a Wagner card just like the linked one to SGC and they returned it indicating that they only graded that 1910 candy issue with the full diamond cut. I might give it another shot.

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Posted By: Brett

Josh, thats a nice Joss even though its graded a 1.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Josh - your Joss is what it is and what it is is very nice.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I have always been amazed that they grade W555's the way they do, i have seen so many that were cut down in SGC 70-84 holders that were nothing but a trimmed example, authentic only should have been the grade. they continue to do it and knowledgable people buy the original W555's and cut them down and send them in for grading.

Scott

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Posted By: robert a

W555s are tough. What if a w555 has been cut with "extra borders?" Should it lose a grade or two? If they're going to grade cards cut from a box, there needs to be a specific policy in place at grading co's that is consistent and recognizes the dynamics of each issue.

With the toy town, I think it's similar to the "Nagy Collection" tag that sgc used. The toy town stamp is a hobby icon! Long live toy towns! The stamp adds a premium in many cases and shoudn't carry a MK qualifier. I guess SGC rationalizes their use of the toy town tag now that the stamp's included in the SCD.

By the way, if the toy town bandit did exist...what an amazing collection. I don't think it's one collector.

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Posted By: Anson

Richard, nobody really knows why the second half of E101 backs are blank. Because the fragment ends with a comma, many believe that it WAS designed for individual advertising or stamps. However, I doubt any of us will ever know.

I would love to get to the bottom of the Toy Town stamp issue, however. I know that many theorize that the stamp was from an old board game. However, I think there are many other possibilities.

I stumbled across the small town of Winchendon, Massachusettes which is also known historically as "Toy Town". Although it's a pretty small town, it's known for woodworking and vintage toy making. Is it possible this town or someone in it had something to do with the stamp (post office?), I don't know. But, it's interesting nevertheless.

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Posted By: quan

the toy town stamp to me is a back stamp and is not an overprint since it does not make references to anything, like the e94 overprints or e98 Old Puts. They are found on various backings of different e and t issues and does not carry any extra premium to me. I would not pay more, and consider them a deterrent like the other initial back stamp of previous owners. Some like Richard think they are unique and collect them, maybe he's the genius and I'm the idiot, but...

PSA have always given TT the MK marking, and SGC had always marked a TT card down at least 2 grades from what I saw. An e97 Kelley psa4mk with the TT stamp was graded sgc30 for example. I don't think SGC would change their mind midstream and now grade these cards as sgc50s with the TT labeling, that would be extremely careless.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Quan,

I agree, but in this instance (with the wagner) that seems to be exactly what they did - neglected to downgrade for the TT - their own grading scale would not allow any card with a mark (ink or pencil) to grade higher than a 30.

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Posted By: Wesley

"PSA have always given TT the MK marking, and SGC had always marked a TT card down at least 2 grades from what I saw."


This is absolutely incorrect. SGC's policy has always been to note the TT stamps but to grade the cards on the technical merits notwithstanding the TT stamps. Even two or three years ago I have seen a E92 Dockman Wagner with Toy Town go from PSA 3 MK to a SGC 40 with the Toy Town on the label.

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Posted By: robert a

Remember this one Quan? Looks to me like GAI knocks it down. They don't mention anything about the stamp or marking on the front.

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Posted By: Richard

Robert - do you mean that GAI doesn't knock it down for the "toy town" stamp? Because that one sure looks like a 2.5 without the stamp.

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Posted By: tbob

the toy town stamp to me is a back stamp and is not an overprint since it does not make references to anything, like the e94 overprints or e98 Old Puts. They are found on various backings of different e and t issues and does not carry any extra premium to me. I would not pay more, and consider them a deterrent like the other initial back stamp of previous owners.>

I couldn't have said it better myself. If the Toy Town stamp is given some kind of noteriety by SGC than what about the Gillian Squires stamp which is seen on the back of so many Obaks. Maybe I should submit my M116 Sporting Life cards which have Buck Barker's scribbled notes on the back of otherwise exmt cards to SGC and go for the "Buck Barker collection" notation on the front...This is all getting crazy. First that dorky "Mr.X" on the PSA slabs, now this. Sheesh.

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Posted By: robert a

Richard,
I have a bunch of other GAI graded cards that make this one look beautiful but I won't get into that too much. I hear what you're saying. I just wanted to note that GAI didn't really seem to pay attention to the stamp that much with regard to the grade they gave. I think the card would be very close to the same grade without the stamp.

I'm biased about "collector stamps" or other stamps that could possibly reveal something about the issue someday. I've always been really interested in them. I think it's cool that the Swift stamp for example is only found on e104s and that some of these stamps are unsolved mysteries. I do think there are certain stamps that are a lot more interesting than others though.

I've searched for the TT Post Office game for a long time, but haven't ever been able to locate that little stamper either.

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Posted By: quan

if that is so then sgc has been inconsistent about the toy town this whole time. you might've remembered the e97 kelly psa4 that was in botn's website that belonged to bcd, that card was an sgc30 when bcd had it...it crossed to a psa4mk...and checking the owner's sgc registry it is back to being an sgc30...all the while with the toy town stamp.

there are enough theories and disputes with the OLD PUT as is, I don't want to dig further with the toy towns and the gilliam squires and the GHCs out there, since they're not bound to any individual set/issue. The SWIFT does intrigue me somewhat as they're only found on e104 A's I believe like Robert mentioned.