Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel much more strongly about the card doctors who will never face justice than about whether Mastro gets a few extra months or not. To me, the damage they have inflicted, and continue to inflict, is much more significant than Mastro and all the other houses running people up. I don't condone it, and yes it sucks and the guilty should be punished, but to fixate on that to the exclusion of a worse problem is to my mind myopic.

[calvindog]

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

Well you set an example for me, Jeff.

Edited to add

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well you set an example for me, Jeff.

Yeah, I sure have. Keep rubbing your temples and explaining how you're not affected by Mastro's massive fraud. Or maybe you just don't want to write a letter to the court because you helped a friend shill some of his Mastro lots?

Edited to add

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yeah, I sure have. Keep rubbing your temples and explaining how you're not affected by Mastro's massive fraud. Or maybe you just don't want to write a letter to the court because you helped a friend shill some of his Mastro lots?

Edited to add

I never claimed to be unaffected, you are mischaracterizing my words. I said I am not sure enough that I have been affected to write the equivalent of a victim impact statement. There is a difference, no?

[ullmandds]

Well...it seems to me that you have to start somewhere...and the lighter the sentence Mastro gets...the lighter the sentence/fine the card doctor will get when he/she is brought to justice.

But the card doctor will never get in trouble...for what they do in and of itself is not against the law...but providing a venue to distribute these known...altered cards is!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I never claimed to be unaffected, you are mischaracterizing my words. I said I am not sure enough that I have been affected to write the equivalent of a victim impact statement. There is a difference, no?

The letter to the court is not a victim impact statement -- it is a letter discussing Mastro's character and the impact he has had on the hobby. It is not a victim impact statement.

[chaddurbin]

i didn't get a dinner or a gift, and i bidded and won a few 5figs cards in mastro throughout the years...gonna cover my bases and write that letter. dude was always too upbeat for my taste, kinda creepy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The letter to the court is not a victim impact statement -- it is a letter discussing Mastro's character and the impact he has had on the hobby. It is not a victim impact statement.

The ones I read seemed to be, for the most part anyhow. So I guess that is how I had thought about them. I had not thought the Court would be interested in more general observations about the hobby.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i didn't get a dinner or a gift, and i bidded and won a few 5figs cards in mastro throughout the years...gonna cover my bases and write that letter. dude was always too upbeat for my taste, kinda creepy.

What if he sends you an Andre Ethier rookie card in PSA 7? Can you be bought?

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What if he sends you a Andre Ethier rookie card in PSA 7? Can you be bought?

probably a smart thing to stay away from the mastro/psa or allen/psa combo at this point.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

I think it would largely depend on the judge and what he/she would let in. I'm not saying it would be an ideal case by any means, but I'm not sure it would be a loser either. You can prove fraud by circumstantial evidence and I don't necessarily have a problem doing that. I don't know why you think I wouldn't get discovery though. That seems kind of unrealistic. It would be fun to take a deposition where Mastro can't plead the 5th because he's already pled out and even if he does, you get to draw an adverse inference and talk to the jury about that in a civil case. Adverse inference from record destruction, adverse inference if he tries to plead the 5th, admissions that he shilled and cheated people -- I think the right jury might get irritated with that sort of stuff. We assert fraud in many of our cases, and I don't really think most juries distinguish, or even care, about the difference between clear and convincing and preponderance of the evidence. At least that's my experience.

If the conduct is bad, I really don't worry that much about damages. It's kind of like pleading punis. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of that because it causes you extra work and if the jury is mad enough to award them, I have always believed that they will find a place to stick them even if you don't ask for them. I'd throw out the number paid for whatever items the client bought, maybe show what they had sold for before, and fight about whether I had to quantify the non-economic stuff. I have only lost that once, and even then the judge said the number wouldn't come in when we tried the case. It settled, so I don't know if the judge would have stuck to his guns.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh you would get discovery of course, it was just a hypothetical about the current state of play and whether it's enough to conclude one was defrauded. I guess with my defense bias I think it's a bit speculative based on the current record but you make a good argument, as always.

[atx840]

This is some seriously sleazy stuff to read.....to me 10 years sound about right.

[ullmandds]

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, the email to the consignor about hitting it one more time and letting it go has been discussed here before.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

Sounds like someone needs a free dinner at the National to get his mind right. Go ahead, order the creme brulee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

Or post #1,000,000 about a Wagner reprint on ebay.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

whatever!!!

[hcv123]

Thanks for bringing it to light. Sent my letter off today.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by keithsky

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You would be suprised how easy it is for even a half assed card doctor to get stuff by ANY of the grading companies. THey are not highly paid experts. They are there to make the grading company $ by grading cards as fast and accurately as posible.

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And yet collectors are still willing to pay astronomical amounts of money for high grade cards based solely on the assessment of the TPG. Why is that?

The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The grading companies give the buyer a false sence of security that their card in not altered/counterfiet. That is if the slab is even real and not counterfiet. JMHO

Some are naïve, others willfully blind.

[tbob]

Jeff- I'm sorry I haven't been following this more closely but I've taken a brief hiatus from the Board. Has the Pre-Sentence Screening Report come back in his case but the US Attorney is offering a 5k so a downward variance/departure can be obtained and he is recommending 30 months? As we both know, it is still up to the judge whether or not the 5k for substantial assistance to the US Atty's office (i.e. "rolling over" and "ratting") will be accepted. It just seems like 30 months for the number of people allegedly scammed (including, possible, your's truly because I bid on a number of card lots in his auctions over the years) is awfully light. Just saying...
Bob

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by tbob

Jeff- I'm sorry I haven't been following this more closely but I've taken a brief hiatus from the Board. Has the Pre-Sentence Screening Report come back in his case but the US Attorney is offering a 5k so a downward variance/departure can be obtained and he is recommending 30 months? As we both know, it is still up to the judge whether or not the 5k for substantial assistance to the US Atty's office (i.e. "rolling over" and "ratting") will be accepted. It just seems like 30 months for the number of people allegedly scammed (including, possible, your's truly because I bid on a number of card lots in his auctions over the years) is awfully light. Just saying...
Bob

With his 5K1, Mastro will be getting a recommendation of under 30 months from the government with zero restitution and zero forfeiture for his crimes.

His enablers will be doing a bit better.

[Sophiedog]

Can he go back into the auction business or is he banned?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Sophiedog

Can he go back into the auction business or is he banned?

There's nothing in his cooperation agreement which suggests he's not permitted back into the hobby.

[calvindog]

Leon, a mutual friend of ours who carries a gun asked me to post your comments about Mastro from October 2013:

"Even though I have considered Bill a hobby friend, and understand I was shill bid, I didn't have the amount of disrespect towards him which I do now, until I read his statement. That statement accepts no responsibility of his misdeeds. He caused his own problems, no one else. He really needs to accept responsibility for his actions. I find his statement disgusting. There were 2 letters? I can guarantee there will be at least 3 by the end of the day today."

21 months later we're still waiting for your letter.

[Kenny Cole]

I sent mine today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

There's nothing in his cooperation agreement which suggests he's not permitted back into the hobby.

One would think he would move on; but then again it's what he knows and loves.

[1880nonsports]

:-)

[uffda51]

I sent a letter to the judge last August. I sent another one yesterday. FWIW.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And 2.

I think the biggest crime for you is that no one has informed you to stop using a Windows machine and Internet Explorer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I think the biggest crime for you is that no one has informed you to stop using a Windows machine and Internet Explorer.

Old school and stubborn.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I've been away for the past week - so sorry joining in late.

My two cents is that there was likely a wide scale scheme to defraud for quite a long period of time in various capacities. The most egregious was knowingly selling fake memorabilia - such as the phony Elvis hair or the 1869 Redlegs baseball. Next, and nearly as egregious was selling doctored cards. And yes there was the shill bidding - which is fraud.

To me, the selling of the fake and doctored items is the fraud that keeps on giving since those items will at some point and time will be or have been re-sold and this is the stuff that needs to be sought out and removed and the buyers need to be compensated. I'm not trying to minimize shill bidding, but it's obviously next to impossible to prove if all or most of the evidence has been destroyed and the damages amount to just some percentage of the item purchased (typically 10% to 30%).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Leon, a mutual friend of ours who carries a gun asked me to post this from October 2013:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...80&postcount=7

... from this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=widespread

no comment same result

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I've been away for the past week - so sorry joining in late.

My two cents is that there was likely a wide scale scheme to defraud for quite a long period of time in various capacities. The most egregious was knowingly selling fake memorabilia - such as the phony Elvis hair or the 1869 Redlegs baseball. Next, and nearly as egregious was selling doctored cards. And yes there was the shill bidding - which is fraud.

To me, the selling of the fake and doctored items is the fraud that keeps on giving since those items will at some point and time will be or have been re-sold and this is the stuff that needs to be sought out and removed and the buyers need to be compensated. I'm not trying to minimize shill bidding, but it's obviously next to impossible to prove if all or most of the evidence has been destroyed and the damages amount to just some percentage of the item purchased (typically 10% to 30%).

It seems we have a reasonable sense of the extent of the shill bidding from the Mastro plea agreement, but no information if the card altering bombshell in the Allen plea agreement was a one off thing (I doubt it) or just the tip of the iceberg and part of a regular practice.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

no comment same result

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlV3oQ3pLA0

[BeanTown]

My hunch is they used house accounts to bid up lots to hidden reserves agreed to with consignors. Im sure that was common practice for Mastro and its employees was to give false promises or kickbacks to land high end consignments back in the day. Consignors I imagine, did not read the fine print or terms and conditions with the auction and took them for their word since they sell millions each year.

Back when Mastro was was the premire auction company, reserves were rarely seen or advertised. It was not "industry standards" As few auction companies just started out lots at higher amounts. Mastro liked to start out lots lower letting the "market set the price". I have won probally more than 100 lots between both Mastro and Legendary.

I can only imagine who the under bidder was on all my lots won.

I would think that former Mastro/Legendary consignors would be upset if they were told one thing and then it played out differently. Another form of fraud thats never discussed. I imagine that contracts disapeared too along with the bidding history is my guess.

I will end this with a silver lining that no matter what I won, that chances are very good that my investment has risen in value. Look at how well the card market as a whole has done over the last 15 years. Im sure Ive been bumped or pushed higher by auctions houses, and it stinks to think about it... But, I was still willing to Bid the winning amount and when the card(s) came in, I was glad I did.

Letter will be written soon even though my story has been told.

[autograf]

Lichtman....party of one.....now seating......

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

My hunch is they used house accounts to bid up lots to hidden reserves agreed to with consignors. Im sure that was common practice for Mastro and its employees was to give false promises or kickbacks to land high end consignments back in the day. Consignors I imagine, did not read the fine print or terms and conditions with the auction and took them for their word since they sell millions each year.

Back when Mastro was was the premire auction company, reserves were rarely seen or advertised. It was not "industry standards" As few auction companies just started out lots at higher amounts. Mastro liked to start out lots lower letting the "market set the price". I have won probally more than 100 lots between both Mastro and Legendary.

I can only imagine who the under bidder was on all my lots won.

I would think that former Mastro/Legendary consignors would be upset if they were told one thing and then it played out differently. Another form of fraud thats never discussed. I imagine that contracts disapeared too along with the bidding history is my guess.

I will end this with a silver lining that no matter what I won, that chances are very good that my investment has risen in value. Look at how well the card market as a whole has done over the last 15 years. Im sure Ive been bumped or pushed higher by auctions houses, and it stinks to think about it... But, I was still willing to Bid the winning amount and when the card(s) came in, I was glad I did.

Letter will be written soon even though my story has been told.

Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

This post was with the bidder hat on.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Check me if I'm wrong, but "Hit it again?" was a question directly asked to YOU was it not?

Is this letter going to be a positive one?

According to the government, the indictment and Mastro, JC was a co-conspirator. Technically, I suppose he could also have been a victim on items he bid on. That being said, a letter from JC to the court about Mastro will probably be met with ridicule or stunned silence. Which is why so many hobby leaders and Net 54 senior members are silent when discussions of Mastro's fraud arise. A misspelled word in a post, a discussion about a dinner -- that they'll chime in on. Mastro fraud? Nope, they need to sit that one out in order to not take the chance of their involvement being exposed.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This post was with the bidder hat on.

Most likely it was Doug trying to get the consigner to take less money than what the agreed upon reserve was!!! Mastro only got paid when stuff sold. Maybe the consigner said NO WAY and the card was returned to him.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Which is why so many hobby leaders and Net 54 senior members are silent when discussions of Mastro's fraud arise. A misspelled word in a post, a discussion about a dinner -- that they'll chime in on. Mastro fraud? Nope, they need to sit that one out in order to not take the chance of their involvement being exposed.

Your name, please?

[wonkaticket]

I'm just getting around to reading this thread. Disappointed and shocked not surprised by the justice system on this.

I could go on for hours about these guys Mastro, Allen etc. bottom line is they are crooks and con men. They may be like able crooks but still crooks.

How pathetic to send gifts to key people. I would be insulted to get such a gift and I could never really enjoy it knowing it came at the expense of so many collectors. Let alone is nothing more than a shallow attempt to bribe away past deeds. Sorry not giving up my integrity or land for some shiny beads from a trickster. Better be one hell of gift these guys got.

Leon as for you and your letter being public and Nash dragging or twisting who cares. The guy will be weaving stories and yarns till he drops dead. He tried that crap with me the best he could come up with was a picture and calling me a "Lifson fanboy" and using a calculator to add up my posted shared net54 REA winnings...and he even screwed that up. Bottom line if you're above board and have no hobby skeletons what could he possibly say or twist that's my view. At least Elkins was creative.

To those who think why write a letter who cares, it's not gonna help. You're wrong. While Mastro, Allen and gang played their games we all paid the price. While you may not have been directly shilled or perhaps you were and don't know I can promise you one thing. If you collect today or have bought any item hobby related you were affected. By raising prices thru games such as shilling, fake sales etc. all prices in the hobby went up because of historical past sales which in effect were not real. That unfortunately for us all cost the items we collect to be more expensive.

This is no different than some oil companies manipulating the cost of crude, or banking institutions messing with rates and loans. It all costs us more at the pump and our house values to be affected.

So Bill if you're reading this please send me a gift so I can send back with a copy of my letter. You may feel bad you may not don't really care. You did the crime so pay up. But if I were you I wouldn't worry to much you have one thing going for you. Countless lazy, naive and not so honest collectors who will once again turn a blind eye and then piss and moan about it later.

If you feel Bill is an ok guy you're either really naive or there's something else going on. That's my two cents.

Cheers,

John

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Most likely it was Doug trying to get the consigner to take less money than what the agreed upon reserve was!!! Mastro only got paid when stuff sold. Maybe the consigner said NO WAY and the card was returned to him.

"Most likely"??? Do you have insider info?

[1880nonsports]

don't you have inside information?