Teams negotiate to get back homerun balls

[mcgwirecom]

I was just reading this article on another site http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj and wanted to get some opinions on this. I think maybe we discussed this before with Jeters 3000th hit but since it is in the news again...

The article brings up that when some fans asked for a little more than they thought was reasonable, the teams would balk on the deal and let the fan walk away with the ball. Then they act as though the fan was being unreasonable. Its interesting that if the ball would drop in the bullpen that MLB would put a sticker on it and sell it themselves for far more than the price of an autographed bat or ball! So now who is unreasonable? They expect a fan to hand over a baseball that could sell for hundreds or thousands (or millions in one case!) but when they get a hold of one they sell it for hundreds or thousands! Does anyone see the irony? What say you?

[keating3620]

I agree with you. There is no correct or incorrect way to handle it. Each fan should be able to choose if they want to give it back for free, ask for something(reasonable or unreasonable), or keep it and/or sell.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by keating3620

I agree with you. There is no correct or incorrect way to handle it. Each fan should be able to choose if they want to give it back for free, ask for something(reasonable or unreasonable), or keep it and/or sell.

Ditto. Well written.

[David Atkatz]

Each fan can choose. Unfortunately many are so drunk with hero-worship that they're thrilled to be taken advantage of by their idols.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Each fan can choose. Unfortunately many are so drunk with hero-worship that they're thrilled to be taken advantage of by their idols.

I wonder if Christian Lopez regrets giving up the Jeter 3000k ball for some trinkets and season ticket seats. A few hundred G in some investment accounts would have been the gift that kept on giving.

[drc]

MLB wants it back so they can sell it for profit. And I'm supposed to have sympathy for their plight, why?

Clearly, MLB knows it's the fan's ball rightfully, otherwise they'd just take the ball away. And don't doubt it, they would. If you tried to walk out of the stadium with a seat or a banner, they'd have you arrested on the spot. MLB won't try and barter you for that seat, they'll have you taken off in handcuffs and banned from the stadium for life.

[mcgwirecom]

I can appreciate that in a big milestone event sometimes people take pity and give the fan something for handing it over. But most often it is NOT the team or MLB! And quite frankly they have the deepest pockets.

I remember on McGwire's 62nd HR ball the kid that caught it handed it over right away. (I'm not sure if he had to as a Cards employee) but later he was given a car or van by a local dealeship. Very nice of them, but I"m sure he could have bought several after auctioning it. And it was given to him by the dealership, not the Cards.

Another great story was Hank Aarons last HR ball. Picked up by an employee of the Brewers, they were under orders to return them all to Hank. He wanted to hand it over in person but the team was leaving for a road trip. He held onto it but was later notified he was fired for not handing it over. Turns out it would be Hanks last and the guy held it for years. Even went to a show and had him sign it! Finally auctioned it a few years ago for $650,000

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I wonder if Christian Lopez regrets giving up the Jeter 3000k ball for some trinkets and season ticket seats. A few hundred G in some investment accounts would have been the gift that kept on giving.

I agree with your sentiments. I'm sorry, but the entire scenario around Jeter's 3000th was painful to watch. Someone with a half an ounce of business sense needed to talk turkey to that poor bastard.

Auction the thing off and help your family. While I admire his selfless nature, he came across as a sycophant fan boy.

[packs]

There is nothing noble about being poor. If you can cash in on anything, then you should cash in. People who think they're doing a nice thing for a professional athlete are delirious. You've already done a nice thing for them by attending the game. But you never get a thank you.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by packs

There is nothing noble about being poor. If you can cash in on anything, then you should cash in. People who think they're doing a nice thing for a professional athlete are delirious. You've already done a nice thing for them by attending the game. But you never get a thank you.

Sing it brother. It was a total circus and that kid was the elephant.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

I agree with your sentiments. I'm sorry, but the entire scenario around Jeter's 3000th was painful to watch.

Jeter had that blank / disconnected stare on his face and looked as if he couldn't get away from the kid fast enough. It really was cringe inducing... I felt terrible for the kid.

[maniac_73]

Good points..Reminded on of that scene in 61 where the press ask Maris if he wants the HR ball back and he tells the kid to keep it and make as much as he can off it..That's how it should be.

[mcgwirecom]

Agreed. And how about the guy who returned the 2011 World Series Game 6 walk off HR ball to David Freese? He got a signed bat and ball I think...nice.

[Exhibitman]

The Yankees and Jeter acted like they were buying Manhattan island the way they treated that kid. Unfortunately, no one with the business sense and moxy to stand up to the team flacks and the star who hit the ball is likely to be in the bleachers fighting for it. More likely he is a poor schmuck who has no idea of what the souvenir is worth and no concept of how he is being exploited.

Under no circumstance would I ever voluntarily give one of these pampered a$$holes a valuable ball I won in the post-HR rugby scrum. They want it, they can buy it same as anyone else, and not for trinkets, either. If I want tickets or signed crap I can buy it with the proceeds, probably many times over.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The Yankees and Jeter acted like they were buying Manhattan island the way they treated that kid. Unfortunately, no one with the business sense and moxy to stand up to the team flacks and the star who hit the ball is likely to be in the bleachers fighting for it. More likely he is a poor schmuck who has no idea of what the souvenir is worth and no concept of how he is being exploited.

Under no circumstance would I ever voluntarily give one of these pampered a$$holes a valuable ball I won in the post-HR rugby scrum. They want it, they can buy it same as anyone else, and not for trinkets, either. If I want tickets or signed crap I can buy it with the proceeds, probably many times over.

Bingo. Well said brother.

[travrosty]

He thinks he was gonna be jeters friend after that, like you can call him up in the offseason and ask to go hold hands and walk in central park.

they want to believe in the possibility that jeter will remember him and his kind action and even be buddies, but its never the case. jeter probably forgot the guys name already. he should have figured out the high retail price for the ball, then offer jeter right of first refusal, if he doesnt want to spend part of his 20 million dollar a year salary on the ball, he doesnt have to, but he had his chance.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

He thinks he was gonna be jeters friend after that, like you can call him up in the offseason and ask to go hold hands and walk in central park.

Fantastic as usual Travis.

[howard38]

.

[Trl3789]

Originally Posted by howard38

It's sad to see this guy getting ridiculed here for giving the ball to Jeter. I would have sold it to the highest bidder but some people are not driven by money. Maybe he just felt good doing it.

I don't know if it is money driven. I look at it as being more fiscally responsible.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by howard38

It's sad to see this guy getting ridiculed here for giving the ball to Jeter. I would have sold it to the highest bidder but some people are not driven by money. Maybe he just felt good doing it.

Nobody prevented Jeter from taking the high road, and expressing his gratitude in a way that might really help the poor bastard.

[howard38]

/

[Exhibitman]

"Maybe Jeter didn't do the right thing. That is no reason to hold up "the poor bastard" to ridicule."

Yeah, there is: Stupidity. I never applaud stupidity, regardless of what pieties it is cloaked in. This was not an act of charity. Giving a valuable artifact to an orphanage to auction off to pay for food and clothing for the kiddies is charity. Giving an artifact of baseball history to the HOF to display and share is commendable. Giving the artifact to a rich entertainer to put in his trophy case for a tiny fraction of its worth because you are starstruck is stupid.

Let's be very clear: there is no "right" or "wrong" thing to do with a baseball you catch at a ballgame. It is not a moral question. The team grants you the right to keep the ball or dispose of it as you wish as part of the ticket [license] to enter its property. What you do with it is a business decision. Jeter did not do the right thing or the wrong thing; he and the Yankees did the shrewd thing. Lopez, however, did the stupid thing. In this world, in this economy, you have to protect your own interests first and foremost. The kid had bills to pay and debts to cover and a future family to provide for, and he threw away a winning lottery ticket. That is not commendable, it is dumb.

And yes, I am a callous, unsentimental bastard; comes with the J.D.

[Gary Dunaier]

I don't know if I'm hijacking the thread by asking this, but with Santana's no-hitter having taken place Friday night, this seems like a good place to ask.

One of the things we hear in the coverage of milestone home run balls is that the fan who finally comes up with the ball is immediately liable for taxes on the presumed market value, regardless of what the fan does with it.

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance. I'm wondering if Santana or the Mets is just as liable for taxes on the value of the ball, whether or not they actually sell it - or does that just apply to fans?

[drc]

Good question.

[packs]

Not sure. If you don't sell the ball how is the market value determined? What if you paid taxes and then later sold the ball for more? Or less? Can you tax sentimental values?

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by packs

Not sure. If you don't sell the ball how is the market value determined? What if you paid taxes and then later sold the ball for more? Or less? Can you tax sentimental values?

Found this relating to Barry Bonds' "756th" home run ball...

By most estimates, the ball that put Bonds atop the list of all-time home run hitters with 756 would sell in the half-million dollar range on the open market or at auction.

That would instantly put [the fan who came up with the ball, Matt Murphy,] in the highest tax bracket for individual income, where he would face a tax rate of about 35 percent, or about $210,000 on a $600,000 ball.

"It's an expensive catch," said John Barrie, a veteran tax lawyer with Bryan Cave LLP in New York who grew up watching the Giants play at Candlestick Park. "Once he took possession of the ball and it was his ball, it was income to him based on its value as of yesterday,"

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said.

(Underlining added by me. Source: ESPN post, August 9, 2007.)

For the record, I don't think any of this stuff should be taxed unless, and until, the item actually gets sold. Fans who catch ordinary foul balls, or balls that are tossed into the stands by players and coaches, aren't taxed on those balls' value. (And these balls do have value, because some teams sell game-used balls to fans in their team stores.) So a fan who catches a milestone ball should also get it for "free," unless and until he decides to sell it.

But I also believe in fair, equal treatment. So if a fan who catches a milestone ball is immediately responsible for paying taxes on it, then - as a Mets fan, I feel weird saying this, especially because Johan Santana seems like a nice guy - it's only fair that Johan Santana, or the New York Mets, or whoever actually "owns" the ball, should be equally responsible for a similar tax liability.

[esd10]

now if i caught jeters 3000th hit i would have told him to buy it at auction you can afford it. I meet jeter many years ago when he played for the clippers and at that time he was nice and down to earth but now he seems to think he is above the fans who pay his crazy salary and i wish there was still the conection between fans and players like there use to.

[CW]

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said.

Thanks for posting that info, Gary. I also think that is BS, but it doesn't surprise me with out tax-happy government. By the same token, we, as taxpayers, should also be able to claim a deduction based on losses for all those games we attended in which we didn't catch a milestone homerun ball. I've spent a lot of money on baseball tickets and have yet to catch a milestone ball!

[drc]

Most actual instances I can think of are where the ordinary fan wins a prize (ala the Walmart T206) where it clearly is something of worth and is intended and advertised to be a prize of worth.

[packs]

I can see it being possible to attempt to tax you but did they actually tax the catcher of the ball? Or any balls before they were sold? Seems like the article is saying it is possible but it's not clear if it was actually followed through on. I can't see theoretical taxes being constitutional.

If your father was a player, do you have to pay taxes when he hands you a jersey to hang up in your room? Does Albert Pujols have to pay taxes on every game used jersey he takes home just in case he sells them?

[mcgwirecom]

I have never heard of anyone being taxed for a ball they caught. Only if you sell it.

[packs]

I don't see how a market value could be determined. It's a one of a kind item. You can't compare it to other one of a kind items. Paintings would be a prime example. You can't determine what one painting will sell for based on the sale of others by the same artist. Each is unique and a value can't be determined until it has been sold. It would not be a commodity with a set or regulated value like say gold.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

"Maybe Jeter didn't do the right thing. That is no reason to hold up "the poor bastard" to ridicule."

Yeah, there is: Stupidity. I never applaud stupidity, regardless of what pieties it is cloaked in. This was not an act of charity. Giving a valuable artifact to an orphanage to auction off to pay for food and clothing for the kiddies is charity. Giving an artifact of baseball history to the HOF to display and share is commendable. Giving the artifact to a rich entertainer to put in his trophy case for a tiny fraction of its worth because you are starstruck is stupid.

Let's be very clear: there is no "right" or "wrong" thing to do with a baseball you catch at a ballgame. It is not a moral question. The team grants you the right to keep the ball or dispose of it as you wish as part of the ticket [license] to enter its property. What you do with it is a business decision. Jeter did not do the right thing or the wrong thing; he and the Yankees did the shrewd thing. Lopez, however, did the stupid thing. In this world, in this economy, you have to protect your own interests first and foremost. The kid had bills to pay and debts to cover and a future family to provide for, and he threw away a winning lottery ticket. That is not commendable, it is dumb.

And yes, I am a callous, unsentimental bastard; comes with the J.D.

Like

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

I don't know if I'm hijacking the thread by asking this, but with Santana's no-hitter having taken place Friday night, this seems like a good place to ask.

One of the things we hear in the coverage of milestone home run balls is that the fan who finally comes up with the ball is immediately liable for taxes on the presumed market value, regardless of what the fan does with it.

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance. I'm wondering if Santana or the Mets is just as liable for taxes on the value of the ball, whether or not they actually sell it - or does that just apply to fans?

Gary,
No disrespect, but IMHO I can't imagine that the final strike ball from Santana's no-hit game would bring anywhere near six figures. Outside of the game ball from Don Larsen's perfect game in the 1956 World Series, I can't imagine any no-hit ball from the modern era selling for north of $10,000.

Nolan Ryan threw 7 no-hitters and the most that any of his no-hit balls ever sold for was about $7,300 back in 1994 (a game used no-hit ball from his 7th no-hitter).

I'm quite sure that a player would never pay taxes on a ball from a game like this unless they sold it. Souvenir vs. capital gains...

Just my 2 cents....

[mcgwirecom]

Hey Scott, if someone put that last out ball on Ebay right after the game they may have gotten 5 figures! Remember someone paid $500 for a ticket! LOL


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc



And $400 for one! Insane!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mcgwirecom

Hey Scott, if someone put that last out ball on Ebay right after the game they may have gotten 5 figures! Remember someone paid $500 for a ticket! LOL


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc



And $400 for one! Insane!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

Randall,

I'm not so sure... Obviously if it was the final pitch of the game that would add even more to the value. I still can't see it reaching $10,000 though...

[thekingofclout]

Hey Scott. I think you're so wrapped up in your Ryan collection , you're forgetting about another So Cal Pitcher who would have certainly broke the five figure mark.

Final Out Ball from Koufax's Perfecto (which may come to market someday, unless it's in Cooperstown) would easily hit the five figure mark! It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it went for $50,000 either. I would imagine that some of his other milestone balls could fetch more than 10K. Final Outs of the other No-Nos. #382. And the Ball that he struck out his 15 Yankee to set the World Series Record and win Game 1 of the '63 Series all come to mind. How about the Ball from his First Major League Win?

Sandy has a very, VERY, strong and wealthy following of Fans as the prices realized for just about all of his Game Used Gear will attest. And I just don't see that changing anytime soon...

[Scott Garner]

Jimmy,

After just returning from a business trip to the left coast I am admittedly groggy this morning and had not yet had my 1st cup of coffee when I posted this response.

No doubt you are correct about Sandy Koufax's milestone last pitch balls. Given Koufax's crossover popularity, etc., I would concur that we would see five figure prices in a major auction for his milestone balls.

Thanks for keeping me honest!

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Jimmy,

After just returning from a business trip to the left coast I am admittedly groggy this morning and had not yet had my 1st cup of coffee when I posted this response.

No doubt you are correct about Sandy Koufax's milestone last pitch balls. Given Koufax's crossover popularity, etc., I would concur that we would see six figure prices in a major auction.

Thanks for keeping me honest!

I'm the self-appointed Hall Monitor for the whole month of June! Next time you're out here, let me know, dinner is on me Buddy (no In-n-Outs in your part of the country ). BTW... I took Ben to his first, and second In-n-Out visits a few years ago on his trip to So Cal. Good Times!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

I'm the self-appointed Hall Monitor for the whole month of June! Next time you're out here, let me know, dinner is on me Buddy (no In-n-Outs in your part of the country ). BTW... I took Ben to his first, and second In-n-Out visits a few years ago on his trip to So Cal. Good Times!

It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.

That's so funny about you mentioning In-n-Out! I was in Los Angeles briefly on Thursday. I had lunch at an In-n-Out!! Just for the record, I had a Double-Double with grilled onions, fries and a chocolate shake. As usual, it was all good. You are correct. No In-n-Out's or good authentic mexican food in the Midwest. These are the things I miss the most.

The next time I'm in LA, I promise to take you up on that Jimmy!

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance.

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Gary,
No disrespect, but IMHO I can't imagine that the final strike ball from Santana's no-hit game would bring anywhere near six figures.

No disrespect inferred. It's probably academic, anyway. Unless Johan Santana himself owns the ball, it will probably never be in a private collection. You might as well speculate about the value of the Liberty Bell or the Declaration of Indepencence (the original one, with the actual signatures) should they ever be put up for auction - not gonna happen, as the guy on "Pawn Stars" is wont to say.

My "six figure" guess also took into account the emotion factor. Not only was this the Mets' first no-hitter, but it took place in the team's 51st season, so their fans have been waiting for this a looooooong time. Add to that the passion Mets fans have for their team, and you can understand how someone got so caught up in it all that maybe 12 hours or so after the final out, they were willing to pay $500 for a ticket from the game.

[Splinte1941]

A little off topic, and by no means am I trying to rain on the parade, but I know a lot of Mets fans personally who aren't sharing the excitement I've seen here and in the media.

Beltran was clearly robbed of a base hit, the ball landed fair, dead smack on the chalk, and it was so blatant that these guys I know who are lifelong degenerate Mets fans feel the whole thing is a total asterisk. The guy really didn't throw a no-hitter.

No hitters and perfect games should never be decided by accidents, mistakes, bad calls, etc. even though we know sometimes they are. Armando Galaraga and Jim Joyce say hello.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by splinte1941

a little off topic, and by no means am i trying to rain on the parade, but i know a lot of mets fans personally who aren't sharing the excitement i've seen here and in the media.

Beltran was clearly robbed of a base hit, the ball landed fair, dead smack on the chalk, and it was so blatant that these guys i know who are lifelong degenerate mets fans feel the whole thing is a total asterisk. The guy really didn't throw a no-hitter.

No hitters and perfect games should never be decided by accidents, mistakes, bad calls, etc. Even though we know sometimes they are. Armando galaraga and jim joyce say hello.

+100

[Leon]

For my first 49 yrs in Texas we had no In N Out Burger joints. IN the last year they have built about 100 in N. Texas. They are literally on almost every street corner now. I think they have over built. Their burgers are good but do we really need one on every freaking corner? Scott- you should have asked for your burger "animal Style." It rocks.

BTW, back to topic. Bad calls are a part of the game. And on the original question, I personally think the fans should hold out for every darned penny they can get for a ball they get at a game. Why not, the owners and team make tons of money.

[Splinte1941]

Bad calls are indeed a part of the game, but you have a franchise and a fan base celebrating something that really didn't happen...because of a bad call.

Santana didn't throw a no hitter, the third base umpire did.

[mcgwirecom]

I was not impressed with my first trip to In-n-Out which was this year in San Fran. I like 5 Guys much better.

[esd10]

my uncle told me a story about when use to go to braves game's in the late 60's and caught a couple of hank aarons homerun balls. He had sought out hank aaron to have him sign them and i guess he acted like a jerk and he thrown the balls away because he made him so mad bye the way he acted.

[mr2686]

All this talk about In-n-Out is making me hungry. Must be time to run over and grab a double double for lunch.

[drc]

Never been to an in and out. The big deal out here (Seattle) is Jack in the Box, but I've never been their either.

When I lived in Australia it was Hungry' Jacks, which was the Aussie equivalent of Burger King.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance. I'm wondering if Santana or the Mets is just as liable for taxes on the value of the ball, whether or not they actually sell it - or does that just apply to fans?

This may be a dead issue as far as Net 54 is concerned, so more for the historical record than anything else, I came across a video of the Mets celebrating Santana's no-hitter (link here, then click on "Must C Classic: Santana finishes off Mets first no-no"), and at 1:03 we see Mets catcher Josh Thole handing Santana a baseball, which I presume is the one that was used to make the final out. Whether or not he still has it is unknown (it could be in his posession, the Mets might have asked for it for the Mets Museum, maybe even Cooperstown wants it, who knows?), but it was given to him.