Which collections should have provenance?

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Posted By: Seth B.

I just picked up my first card with a provenance on the slab: an E92 Shean from the Nagy Collection. I missed out when a bunch of these Nagy caramels were auctioned awhile ago, and I'm happy to get one now. What do people think about grading companies designating collections on the flips? I think it's kind of cool, gives some legitimacy to these baseball cards and the collectors, kind of like ex collection stamps on Old Master engravings or something.
What other collections should/do have provenance set aside on the flips? Besides Mr. X (), I'll nominate Buck Barker, I'd love it if SGC/PSA/GAI recognized those great notes on the back of Old Judges and other cards from his collection.

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Posted By: Joe D.

but I don't get excited about who owned the card before me.

Nagy or anyone else.... doesn't make me want the card more or like the card more.



Truth be told, these cards are 100 years old... and the people who have touched them over that time and the stories the cards could tell if they could speak... well, you couldn't fit all that cool stuff on a slab.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Yeah, what he said!

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Posted By: JimB

I think the provenance of pioneers of the hobby is cool, as long as it does not get used too loosely.
JimB

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Posted By: Mike

You mean like The Charlie Sheen Collection?

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Posted By: Rich Klein

In some hobbies like coins, provenance is very important. I think as we continue to mature as a hobby -- that being part of an important collection like a Halper or a Nagy or a Barker will become even more valued.

Just my opinion
Rich

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Posted By: Seth B.

Rich-
I definitely agree with you there, and that's why I like to see the trend. Not as a value thing (I didn't pay more for this Nagy card than for other E92s in similar condition), but as a sort of homage to important collectors before. As with coins or fine art, I definitely think it distinguishes a collectable to tell the story of it from collection to collection. Sure, if we could say the stories of the eight year old chewing on Dockman gum who first pulled the card, that would be cool, too. But in lieu of that impossible task, why not celebrate the people like us who searched high and low for the cards for their collection and were especially good or pioneering for the hobby?

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Posted By: Cobby33

Was the Sheen Collection pedigree'd as such?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I would say listing provance is legitimate when it legitimately raises financial value, it helps prove authenticity (a Yankees team signed ball came from the estate of a Yankees coach) or the provenance is famous (card belonged to Joe DiMaggio or Jesse Owens). The latter two would raise financial value.

Sheen owned a lot of significant art and memorabilia, and documenting that the painting or jersey belonged to Sheen would be a wise idea and likely raise value. I know Sheen owned some original Andy Warhol paintings and, at resale, it would help to show a painting belonged to a well known Hollywood actor with the means to afford it. If only because the potential buyer might ask, "Where'd you get this?"

I'm not as bothered as others by added provenance on a card holder, though agree with many that the 'Mr. X' was stupid. It added no information or support to the card. A label of 'Carl Jones, my nextdoor neighbor who traded with me' would be of more substance.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I believe psa designated cards from the Sheen collection.

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Posted By: Rick

I would pay a little more ...maybe 10%?

It really depends though...If its a low grade card ..or a fairly common card, then I dont think it would be that big a deal ..but for rare cards less than 10 known...or very high end cards like the "Harris collection" it would be kinda of cool.

I thought that perhaps Hal should have put his name on his reciouss Wagner.

Its only like 5 bucks to have your name on the flip...i just think it should be limited to special cards.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

If you can make money (10%) by putting your name on a collection, I can't wait to see how long until the Pete Rose collection #1 is released.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Gil, that is a truly funny response - and probably sadly accurate. I can just see him hawking 10,000 2005 Topps Refractors with his name on the flip (he's an avid collector of ten cent shiny cards, naturally) for $500 per at a shop in Cooperstown during the next induction ceremony....

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Posted By: Jim Manos

Without a doubt.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Interesting topic.

What (who) qualifies as deserving to have a name on the grading companies label? How long does it have to be in a specific collection to qualify? Charlie Sheen? Didn't he pick up a lot of material from different collections? Wasn't he actively buying cards from the Halper auction (and other auctions)? If he bought cards in the Halper auction wouldn't it be from the Halper collection? The same could be said for Penny Marshall, she bought many items from auctions. You wouldn't even have to put her name on the grading company labels. You could put one of those scripted L's (Laverne) on those labels. What about famous rock stars that collect cards and decide to sell them off - would they deserve a label with their name?

It's kind of interesting to have cards from a famous collection, remember the HARRIS collection of T206 cards (PSA graded). You could ask a lot of experts about that graded collection - you'd probably get the same opinion from most (some trimmed cards and "how can a card with a crease grade at a 5 or 6?").

To me, the Buck Barker idea is good because Buck Barker was an old hobby veteran. There's a hobby veteran worth collecting. It would be nice to have his cards with the writing on the back. From what I understand though a lot of his cards may have to be put in AUT holders because he trimmed them down to fit the plastic pages.

Should labeling with provenance be limited to being a posthumous honor? Adding a name to a label doesn't add value to the card but it does add value to the holder. What happens if someone that really detests "slabs" buys the card and breaks it out (to free it from it plastic tomb of course). Any extra value that card had (because it was "slabbed" with a famous name on the label) is now gone. Maybe they could auction the "slab and label" on ebay...

This post wasn't meant as a cut down to anyone that believes names on labels is cool, it's just a few thoughts that passed between the empty space which lies between my two ears...

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Posted By: dd

I like it...being a history buff, I dig provenance. As long as it is done within reason it's cool...I would draw the line on used cars though....

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Posted By: Joe D.

what if the car was a LeBaron previously owned by Jon Voight.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Who's Jon Voight? If you could prove a relationship between Angelina Jolie and Jon Voight then you could try selling the car as Brad Pitt's wife' father's old car....

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm not sure the point of provenance is entirely to show that somebody famous owned a piece. Sometimes famous collectors are not necessarily celebrities. Is a Charlie Sheen provenance important because he was one of the hobby's foremost and most knowledgable collectors, or because he was a famous movie star? Provenance helps trace the path a coin or baseball card has travelled over the years. That information is important in that it shows an expert in his field had the discriminating taste to choose that collectable over an inferior one. If Brittany Spears started collecting baseball cards on a whim, would her provenance be important? I think not.

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Posted By: Joe D.

George bought a LeBaron because the prior owner was John Voight

http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheMomAndPopStore.html

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Posted By: barrysloate

But it turned out to be John Voight the dentist, and not the actor. Tim Whatley went to dental school with him.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- great link. I didn't know that all the Seinfeld scripts are available online. I have them close to memorized anyway, but still a great resource.

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Posted By: James Gallo

As mentioned above other hobbies note this. First and foremost comics come to mind. There are specific things that need to fall into place for CCG (Comic Grading Company) to put a provenance label on a slabed book.

I think the first thing is that it has to be a single or original owner collection.

Next the collection has to have some outstanding characteristics. In most cases they are high grade with white pages and stand out colors.


I believe there may be 1 or 2 other things but I can't think of them right now.

Regardless there are only a handful of collecttion that are marked maybe 6-10.
I believe they may have marked the Nicholas Cage collection, which I guess is similar to the Sheen stuff.


On a side note, can anyone give me more information about the Nagy Collection. It was sold when I was "out" of the hobby.
But I have a bunch of his 1915 Cracker Jacks.

Thanks

James Gallo

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: barrysloate

James- you make some good points. Frank Nagy was one of the oldest and most famous collectors in the country. He died several years ago and Mastro Auctions recently sold his collection. Getting back to provenance, I think it has meaning when it is associated with some of the most important and highest quality collectables in their respective field. The Harris collection is a good example, since it is understood that when assembling his T206 set he went after only the very finest examples known. So if you have a PSA-9 example from his collection (I know there are some side issues here) there is a chance you may own the finest known example of that card. That is a worthwhile provenance. However, while Frank Nagy was a legendary collector, I'm not sure having his name attached to a VG E92 common has any meaning because you or I or anyone could find its equal on ebay nearly every day of the week. And Nagy must have had 100,000 cards, and they weren't all important.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

would be provenance on a card with writing on it from a famous hobby pioneer, like Buck Barker. Otherwise, the card is just a mass-produced item and I don't really care who owned it before.

BTW, the "famous person owned it" thing isn't new. It has been a staple of celebrity estate sales for decades.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- you're right about the celebrity thing, but provenance should hold more weight if the collector was an expert in his field. One example of a crossover is Adolphe Menjou, who was an accomplished movie star in the 1930's and was also considered one of the foremost numismatic experts, having built an incredible coin collection. I think most celebrity collectors have more money than knowledge, and collect just for the fun of it. Nothing wrong with that.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

That one of the best opportunties to make $$ at the Halper collection sale would have been to purchase all the standard Topps/Bowman sets. Why? Well I remember that my dad owned a stamp he bought at Gimbels for a bit more than it worth because it was from the King Farouk collection.

In all seriousness, I would have announced I had purchased those sets. Then I would have had a way for collectors to purchase commons for more than book value -- yes I'm serious about that -- maybe something like $5 for a random card our choice -- and done a star/superstar price list. Since I would have announced I had won the sets -- then I would have created LOA's about these cards being part of the Halper collection and marketed them as -- own a piece of history -- just like Mr. Halper did.

I'm still surprised no one did this.

Rich

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Posted By: barrysloate

Probably because it wouldn't have been all that historic. Also, as the cards continued to change hands and disperse, it would have been tough to keep track of them. Every last common would have to have been slabbed and labelled. If you just include an LOA, they would have been interspersed with non-Halper material. I don't think it would have worked.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If a real name is used, listing an owner is a service to collectors. While someone might say "Where did that PSA 10 come from? Looks suspicious," the label may now show that it was owned by John Branca. In general, documenting provenance is better than not even if not aesthetically pleasing.

It's less important with baseball cards, as the average collector can judge authenticity of a 1952 Topps or 1982 Donruss. However, as a collector of modern photographs by famous photographers, provenance is important. It would be important that it can be shown that a photo came from the photographer, an employee of the magazine where he worked or an known expert collector. This type of provenance would help establish authenticity.

In the photo hobby, a photo will have higher financial value if it belonged to a famous person. So, whetever you think of his movies, Charlie Sheen provenance would add value to a quality photo. Sheen would be a past owner who is both a Hollywood actor and known to be a serious collector of authentic material. The latter alone would likely give a buyer more confidence when buying.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Usually a baseball card is in the hobby from its date of manufacture until its demise, but not always. Sometimes they get lost. These poor lost cards find themselves in the company of other photographs, cabinets and non-sports assemblies. To eventually be rescued by a person knowledgable about our hobby.

Documentation of this process of finding the card and bringing it (back) into the hobby is a card's provenance which would be of interest to me; as well as the establishment of the card's chain of custody, if possible, prior to its re-discovery. Im not sure that I would pay extra for it, but I know that I wouldn't pay extra for a Charlie Sheen previously owned anything.

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Posted By: George H. Counter

Hey...
I'll take this Charlie Sheen pre-owned "item" anyday

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Posted By: Joe D.

I want to find out who owned this card over the past 100 years.

Those are the names I want. I want to know the hole story (sic) of this cards journey... and how many near misses it has had from the garbage pail.

Can I ask SGC to slab this with the reference "Nagy Who?"


(did I mention the shellac on the back of the card?)

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

George: your common, at first glance appears to be in better shape than that of Joe D. But I believe yours has been altered including trimming, recoloring and other artificial enhancements. That of Joe D. however, also an accomplished Big League Professional, does have a bit of charm which I find lacking in the nicer appearing option.

It is clear that both examples have quite a bit of experience, and I wonder which has the longer chain of custody.

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Posted By: Joann

I like the idea of having cards from significant collections identified as such. Not famous people, not important cards, significant collections.

I picked up my E102 Crawford from our Fearless Leader's site, and one of the reasons I wanted that one was definitely the "Nagy Collection" designation. I'm not sure why it matters, I just kind of like the idea.

I also would have paid more in the last REA auction for anything labeled as being from Julie Vognar's collection, as she was (as far as I know and can tell) by far the most advanced female collector. I'm not sure why her cards were not so identified, and even may have tried for one anyway except that I couldn't pick out which were hers.

Joann

(Of course, I will be on the prowl for "Carl Jones my next door neighbor" cards, because that is just too classically funny.)

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I don't know...Just thinking aloud...The Dorskind Group?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Joann: In my opinion, Julie Vogner's collection transcended the gender of the designer/owner. On this board we have many noteworthy collections. Hers clearly took its place among the best. She has an amazing eye for the exquisite - which did not always require highly graded.

Although she sold off the more valuable portion of her collection, much of her assembly remains.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

One of my 1913 Garters has Buck Barkers stamp with home
address on it ,so I gather that this is one your meaning or meanings of provenance....Adam, Barry ?

I only know what breifings you guys have given on board
about Buck Barker,any interesting stories to be shared?

If I hadnt heard his name here ,I would have only thought
that he was with Dillinger and strong armed someones
collection.

Thanx

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Posted By: barrysloate

He was one of the hobby pioneers and is still one of the legendary names today. I believe he helped Jefferson Burdick acquire cards when he was mounting his collection at the Metropolitan Museum.
Which reminds me of something funny I meant to share with the board. I was going through my bookshelf the other day and found the pamphlet "Directory of the J.R. Burdick Collection." I picked it up many years ago in one of my visits to view the collection. There is a full page biography of Burdick in the front and there is one sentence from it that I need to quote verbatim. In talking about how the museum helped Burdick mount the collection, the author writes: We bought him more and more scrapbook binders, more and more pure rag pages, and more and more pots of paste." I wonder how many current collectors display their cards today using pots of paste. Don't you want to just go back in time and yell out: Jefferson, no, don't use the paste, the grading services will hammer your entire collection one day.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Um, I use paste - doesnt everybody?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, we all do Josh, don't we (wink wink)?

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Posted By: Joe D.

I was thinking of putting those little velcro tabs on the back of some of my SGC slabbed cards so that I could hang them on the wall.

But now I am wondering....

In 50 years, will they be grading the grading slabs as well?

and slabbing the slabs that have slabbed the cards?


I would hate to ruin it for a future collector.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Most experienced collectors on this board are concerned with provenance: namely who is the seller. One buys from Lew Lipset, Mastro or Leon because they are knowledgeable sellers. Upon resale, one will advertise that he bought the rare card in a Lew Lipset auction.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But if you buy a card from Mastro that is not labelled so, after it changes hands a few times it will be near impossible to track. It's usually the collector who owned it, not the dealer who sold it, that determines provenance.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Provenance literally means chain of ownership, but LOAs, holograms on signed baseballs, card grading labels and Mastro catalog listings will generally be considered part of provenance. Ownership, reputable LOAs and grading all help document the history and identity of the item.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But auction houses don't generally own the lots, the consignors do. Have you ever seen a provenance which read ex-Sotheby's?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Literally, provenance means who owned the item.

Using a looser sense, I consider provenance any documentation of ownership, history and identity of the item. Does a PSA/DNA LOA prove that a Cap Anson signed baseball was owned by Anson as advertised? No. But, along with a letter from Anson's grandaughter, the LOA would help establish identity and history. If PSA/DNA said the signature was in in sharpie, their opinion would obviously say the famous history was false. So I consider LOAs, grading and such as documents that help establish history. The PSA/DNA LOA doesn't prove that the ball was owned by Anson, but supports the granddaughter's story. This is why I would consider a PSA/DNA LOA part of the provenance, or at least part of the documentation showing the provenance.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Any information a seller can provide is useful to a buyer. For example, a catalog description could read: "this card that once belonged to Frank Nagy was recently sold in a Mastro auction." That gives the card both a pedigree and lets the buyer know a respected auction house felt it was worthy of handling. But the provenance is still ex-Nagy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I will use the phrase 'documentation of provenance' instead of provenance. 'Cap Anson' was the provenance, while his granddaughter's letter, PSA/DNA LOA and Mastro auction description are paper documentation of the provenance.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We're just talking semantics, but we both agree the more information one provides the better informed a potential buyer will be.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Are you a rabbid (or is that rabbit)anti-semantic?