Another fake 52T Mantle on ebay

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...cAAOSwZVhWTlnN

Real one attached.
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=46570

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ebay one.

[Donscards]

It is over 11K-----sure wish it was real

[Peter_Spaeth]

The flip is pretty good on this one, I think, but the card LOL.

I don't see any obvious damage to the case? Are they now making cases too?

[Iron Horse]

The flip looks very real but as you said the card is a poor copy. Curious what happened once the winner got that fake Bowman rookie that you dug up

[Rookiemonster]

I said this last time it's a inside job ! No doubt this is from somebody that works for PSA . Great job finding this stuff Peter .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I said this last time it's a inside job ! No doubt this is from somebody that works for PSA . Great job finding this stuff Peter .

I doubt that very much, actually.

[Sophiedog]

He doesn't even post a scan of the back of the card. For a card like that you would think he would post a few pics at least. Big red flag just with that

[glynparson]

from what i understand many of the fake older flips and fake older slabs are produced by some scumbag from central/latin america somewhere. Card is really poor reproduction on this one. not even close to real. Good work Peter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

from what i understand many of the fake older flips and fake older slabs are produced by some scumbag from central/latin america somewhere. Card is really poor reproduction on this one. not even close to real. Good work Peter.

Are they making slabs? I know at one point there was a discussion where a person I consider to be extremely knowledgeable said no, all the slabs were just tampered with.

[glynparson]

I have heard Both. I am
Honestly not sure. It wasn't to hard to crack the old slabs cleanly so that may have been possible.

[pokerplyr80]

I saw this one too and assumed it was fake, but decided to take him up on his offer to end the auction early for the right price. I offered 35k and accepted his counter offer of 37, still assuming this was some kind of a scam.

This was his response outside of ebay:

Ok, here is the deal. I can end the auction and sell it to you. I request $7000 deposit into my bank account until you get the card. After you verify it, send me the rest. I am using bank transfer for this transaction at this price. Thanks!

He did not respond to my request to place the funds in an escrow account until the card could be verified by PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I saw this one too and assumed it was fake, but decided to take him up on his offer to end the auction early for the right price. I offered 35k and accepted his counter offer of 37, still assuming this was some kind of a scam.

This was his response outside of ebay:

Ok, here is the deal. I can end the auction and sell it to you. I request $7000 deposit into my bank account until you get the card. After you verify it, send me the rest. I am using bank transfer for this transaction at this price. Thanks!

He did not respond to my request to place the funds in an escrow account until the card could be verified by PSA.

Since you knew already it was fake, or should have, what was the point, just to see how he would react?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Since you knew already it was fake, or should have, what was the point, just to see how he would react?

Pretty much, curiosity, and the off chance that the card was real and it was a bad picture. It took about 5 minutes of time and there wasn't much risk. I certainly wasn't going to wire him a bunch of money without verifying the card.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I said this last time it's a inside job ! No doubt this is from somebody that works for PSA . Great job finding this stuff Peter .

There is zero chance that anyone from PSA was involved in photoshopping an image of a reprinted 1952 Mantle into a picture of an already existing card. This one looks purely digital to me. I say there's zero chance the seller ever delivers a physical card.

[Rookiemonster]

Do you think PSA keeps all the old slabs ? I don't thinks . Do think they get trash 100% I do . Do think there's some low wage worker willing to sell those ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Pretty much, curiosity, and the off chance that the card was real and it was a bad picture. It took about 5 minutes of time and there wasn't much risk. I certainly wasn't going to wire him a bunch of money without verifying the card.

How was there even an off chance? All you have to do to find the real ones with the same cert is to look at cardtarget.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How was there even an off chance? All you have to do to find the real ones with the same cert is to look at cardtarget.

Believe it or not I had never been to card target before today. It looks like a good resource though and I will be sure to use it in the future.

As to your question yes I knew there was virtually no chance that card was real, but I wanted to see how he would respond. I guess the same mentality that gets people to buy those obvious reprints we post here. What if?

A better question would be who is bidding 10k plus on this card? I would assume someone who is planning to just use the ebay guarantee when things don't work out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Believe it or not I had never been to card target before today. It looks like a good resource though and I will be sure to use it in the future.

As to your question yes I knew there was virtually no chance that card was real, but I wanted to see how he would respond. I guess the same mentality that gets people to buy those obvious reprints we post here. What if?

A better question would be who is bidding 10k plus on this card? I would assume someone who is planning to just use the ebay guarantee when things don't work out.

People obviously don't do their diligence. People were bidding near full retail on the fake 4 despite many red flags. There have been thousands of fraudulent hobby transactions, I couldn't even begin to explain them all, except to say many people check their intelligence at the door when it comes to making purchases. Thus, fraudsters get rich.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People obviously don't do their diligence. People were bidding near full retail on the fake 4 despite many red flags. There have been thousands of fraudulent hobby transactions, I couldn't even begin to explain them all, except to say many people check their intelligence at the door when it comes to making purchases. Thus, fraudsters get rich.

Unfortunately that is all completely true. I admit it was basically a waste of time to even try on this one. But I really did want to see what he would have to say. That's why I offered less than 1/3 of what the card has sold for recently.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I saw this one too and assumed it was fake, but decided to take him up on his offer to end the auction early for the right price. I offered 35k and accepted his counter offer of 37, still assuming this was some kind of a scam.

This was his response outside of ebay:

Ok, here is the deal. I can end the auction and sell it to you. I request $7000 deposit into my bank account until you get the card. After you verify it, send me the rest. I am using bank transfer for this transaction at this price. Thanks!

He did not respond to my request to place the funds in an escrow account until the card could be verified by PSA.

even people with real mantles wont agree to those terms...they would agree to a paypal regular payment to them that you could cancel I guess later if fake..but they not going to use an escrow most of the time unless you want to pay the escrow fee at least..

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

even people with real mantles wont agree to those terms...they would agree to a paypal regular payment to them that you could cancel I guess later if fake..but they not going to use an escrow most of the time unless you want to pay the escrow fee at least..

I offered to pay the escrow fees but I don't think that was the issue. I also offered to come pick it up in person. I would have obviously paid double what I offered or quite a bit more if I thought the seller actually had the card.

I don't have any experience buying cards in this kind of price range but I certainly wouldn't just wire money into someone's account even if I knew the card was real unless I knew something about the seller.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just for entertainment value I am tempted to bid 50,000, let him end it early with me as high bidder, and then laugh at him.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Just for entertainment value I am tempted to bid 50,000, let him end it early with me as high bidder, and then laugh at him.

The card is at 19k now so you would be helping someone out if you put a stop to this auction.

I have never sold anything on ebay, just privately or through auction house. How long after you ship something are the funds in your account and available for withdrawal? I wonder if the plan of this kind of a seller is to cash the money out and close all associated accounts before a claim can be filed. It seems relatively easy to pad a feedback score with a bunch of cheap transactions and then go for a big score like this 52 Mantle. Very scary for collectors who don't know better.

[ullmandds]

what does private sale mean?

[jfkheat]

Sadly, reporting these to Ebay usually doesn't do any good. There was a "seller" that sold 7 fake cards a couple weeks ago. I reported all of the listings and even called Ebay and explained why the cards were fake. They were all PSA graded cards that had fake labels and cards.
James

http://www.ebay.com/sch/trustyourgut...p2046732.m1684

[itjclarke]

Thanks for outing this one Peter. The card does look really bad, but it's scary to me to imagine if/when someone sticks an authentic, but maybe slightly trimmed Mantle into a holder like this. I've seen a few really nice authentic Mantles sell this year. You could turn $5-$10K cards into $40-$70K cards pretty quickly with these legit looking holders.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

Sadly, reporting these to Ebay usually doesn't do any good. There was a "seller" that sold 7 fake cards a couple weeks ago. I reported all of the listings and even called Ebay and explained why the cards were fake. They were all PSA graded cards that had fake labels and cards.
James

http://www.ebay.com/sch/trustyourgut...p2046732.m1684

no negative feedback after selling 6 or so fake cards for 1000s?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

Sadly, reporting these to Ebay usually doesn't do any good. There was a "seller" that sold 7 fake cards a couple weeks ago. I reported all of the listings and even called Ebay and explained why the cards were fake. They were all PSA graded cards that had fake labels and cards.
James

http://www.ebay.com/sch/trustyourgut...p2046732.m1684

Ebay, as best I can tell from experience, is completely unwilling to take action. Even when PSA itself notifies them. They just pay lip service to you when you call.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ebay, as best I can tell from experience, is completely unwilling to take action. Even when PSA itself notifies them. They just pay lip service to you when you call.

I really don't know why we bother posting ebay listings on non established sellers on 1952 mantles or similar cards...anyone with a real one that has no real selling history will consign it or send it someone that has a real reputation that you can collect from if the card is fake and not just through the ebay process.

maybe 5 years ago..but now with the current prices , everyone needs to stop looking for 'deals' you will have to bid at auction like everyone else....there are no 'deal's on 1952 mantles...not sure why anyone even clicks those listings...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I really don't know why we bother posting ebay listings on non established sellers on 1952 mantles or similar cards...anyone with a real one that has no real selling history will consign it or send it someone that has a real reputation that you can collect from if the card is fake and not just through the ebay process.

maybe 5 years ago..but now with the current prices , everyone needs to stop looking for 'deals' you will have to bid at auction like everyone else....there are no 'deal's on 1952 mantles...not sure why anyone even clicks those listings...

Jake are you saying you don't look at the listings? Be truthful now.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jake are you saying you don't look at the listings? Be truthful now.

no I don't anymore . never going to buy so why look...people do email me from time to time to see if I recognize a listing I not looking to buy etc and will never click the listing on my own anymore.

would you look at a t206 honus wagner psa 3 listed for 200k from a guy with 20 feedback selling a $5.55 fishing rod among feedback.?..I wouldn't even bother to click the listing..its like that now for me on 51B mantle and 52T mantle....if I want one ill just have to pay at a real auction house or from an established real seller ....it really a waste of time now to look to buy from joe public....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

no I don't anymore . never going to buy so why look...people do email me from time to time to see if I recognize a listing I not looking to buy etc and will never click the listing on my own anymore.

would you look at a t206 honus wagner psa 3 listed for 200k from a guy with 20 feedback selling a $5.55 fishing rod among feedback.?..I wouldn't even bother to click the listing..its like that now for me on 51B mantle and 52T mantle....if I want one ill just have to pay at a real auction house or from an established real seller ....it really a waste of time now to look to buy from joe public....

Well you were as recently as a couple of weeks ago on a PSA 4 52T Mantle, right? The one being offered by "Walter" that I showed you was a fake using a serial number from a past auction?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well you were as recently as a couple of weeks ago on a PSA 4 52T Mantle, right? The one being offered by "Walter" that I showed you was a fake using a serial number from a past auction?

like I said..i don't look anymore its a waste of time....people shouldn't be worried about putting funds in escrow etc...they are all fake...why even risk it....I wont even click any of the listings anymore...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well I agree with you there, they are all fake. But I don't feel badly about alerting people and trying to do my part to stop it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well I agree with you there, they are all fake. But I don't feel badly about alerting people and trying to do my part to stop it.

I have no problem with you doing that..i just see other posters talking about seriously looking to buy cards and talking about putting funds in escrow..it looks like they are putting in real time searching ebay listings... its like lookin for for a real t206 wagner that a guy says found in a house he just bought....it really a waste of time...the 1952 mantle is in that league now....you wont have to warn anyone if people treated the mantle like the t206 wagner...you aren't warning people about buying 'real' t206 wagners....no need too...and shouldn't need to warn about the mantle anymore is what I am saying....but you can do what you want...

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I have no problem with you doing that..i just see other posters talking about seriously looking to buy cards and talking about putting funds in escrow..it looks like they are putting in real time searching ebay listings... its like lookin for for a real t206 wagner that a guy says found in a house he just bought....it really a waste of time...the 1952 mantle is in that league now....you wont have to warn anyone if people treated the mantle like the t206 wagner...you aren't warning people about buying 'real' t206 wagners....no need too...and shouldn't need to warn about the mantle anymore is what I am saying....but you can do what you want...

If you're talking about me I wasted about 5 minutes contacting the ebay seller. I've wasted more time reading this thread. I only suggested putting the money in an escrow account to see what he would say. Had he agreed I would have talked to him on the phone, asked for more scans, done whatever I could to verify he had the card before paying any escrow fees. I'm not an idiot.

Didn't you say you bought a 52 Mantle off craigslist? There may have been a 1 in a million shot this ebay seller actually had this card, or less. But it didn't hurt anything to find out for sure. Just like it was along shot someone was actually selling a 52 Mantle on craigslist.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If you're talking about me I wasted about 5 minutes contacting the ebay seller. I've wasted more time reading this thread. I only suggested putting the money in an escrow account to see what he would say. Had he agreed I would have talked to him on the phone, asked for more scans, done whatever I could to verify he had the card before paying any escrow fees. I'm not an idiot.

Didn't you say you bought a 52 Mantle off craigslist? There may have been a 1 in a million shot this ebay seller actually had this card, or less. But it didn't hurt anything to find out for sure. Just like it was along shot someone was actually selling a 52 Mantle on craigslist.

I bought that mantle years ago ..like my post says..times have changed for the mantle....you constantly contact private sellers with no feedback and go into negotiations on several mantles..not just this one in this thread..you have spent much more time in the past few weeks going after fake mantles than reading this thread.....plus the fact you would even contemplate into entering in phone negotiations , wait for verification and put the card/funds in escrow etc sounds like a heck of a lot of time for a fake mantle.....you can do what you want ..I just think its a waste of time now and getting updates on how the mantle is fake with a guy with 5 feedback with past sales of a $5.55 cent blowdryer or whatever is more of a waste of time....and now in the category of buying a T206 PSA Wagner from private seller with no reputation..i don't think people would bother with negotiating the price on the wagner and deal with escrow and verification because they know its fake...but to each their own..i just know I no longer will even to bother clicking the listings for 1952 mantles ...if I want one ill get one from a real seller or at an auction.....

[pokerplyr80]

I watch ebay and auction sites for mantles but unfortunately passed on a few in recent months and the prices have gotten out of my range. I have contacted 3 or 4 sellers in the last year from eBay who I now believe had fake mantles or fake pictures of real ones. It certainly is not constantly and never takes much time because these frauds are just looking for someone who will send them money without asking many questions. I mentioned I would talk to someone on the phone and ask for more scans because this also wouldn't take much time and a scammer would be less likely to take those steps. I would take the same precautions with a seller I believe had a real card I was spending thousands or 10s of thousands of dollars on.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I have no problem with you doing that..i just see other posters talking about seriously looking to buy cards and talking about putting funds in escrow..it looks like they are putting in real time searching ebay listings... its like lookin for for a real t206 wagner that a guy says found in a house he just bought....it really a waste of time...the 1952 mantle is in that league now....you wont have to warn anyone if people treated the mantle like the t206 wagner...you aren't warning people about buying 'real' t206 wagners....no need too...and shouldn't need to warn about the mantle anymore is what I am saying....but you can do what you want...

Obviously, there is an issue with scammers trying to sell fake 52T Mantles on eBay, just as there is with any iconic, high dollar card.

But the reason people don't view a 52T Mantle the same way they view a T206 Wagner is because it simply isn't. T206resource.com doesn't show even one real T206 Wagner as ever having sold on eBay; Real 52T Mantles still sell many times over on eBay.

A destroyed, beater of a trimmed Wagner T206 is still a quarter of a million dollar card. The 52T Mantle has been on a sharp rise of late, but it is nowhere near that kind of value.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I really don't know why we bother posting ebay listings on non established sellers on 1952 mantles or similar cards...anyone with a real one that has no real selling history will consign it or send it someone that has a real reputation that you can collect from if the card is fake and not just through the ebay process.

maybe 5 years ago..but now with the current prices , everyone needs to stop looking for 'deals' you will have to bid at auction like everyone else....there are no 'deal's on 1952 mantles...not sure why anyone even clicks those listings...

As a relative newbie to the board, I sincerely appreciate the education that the collectors here provide. I am sure pointing out fakes to long time members gets tiresome but there are new members who join the site daily.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

would you look at a t206 honus wagner psa 3 listed for 200k from a guy with 20 feedback selling a $5.55 fishing rod among feedback.?.

That observation made me laugh out loud.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I bought that mantle years ago ..like my post says..times have changed for the mantle....you constantly contact private sellers with no feedback and go into negotiations on several mantles..not just this one in this thread..you have spent much more time in the past few weeks going after fake mantles than reading this thread.....plus the fact you would even contemplate into entering in phone negotiations , wait for verification and put the card/funds in escrow etc sounds like a heck of a lot of time for a fake mantle.....you can do what you want ..I just think its a waste of time now and getting updates on how the mantle is fake with a guy with 5 feedback with past sales of a $5.55 cent blowdryer or whatever is more of a waste of time....and now in the category of buying a T206 PSA Wagner from private seller with no reputation..i don't think people would bother with negotiating the price on the wagner and deal with escrow and verification because they know its fake...but to each their own..i just know I no longer will even to bother clicking the listings for 1952 mantles ...if I want one ill get one from a real seller or at an auction.....

I am one collector who appreciates those who point out fakes and the reasons the cards are/look off. Not that I am in the market for a 52 Mantle but I do appreciate the education. I am sure there are others. Like the campaign says "If you see something, say something."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Obviously, there is an issue with scammers trying to sell fake 52T Mantles on eBay, just as there is with any iconic, high dollar card.

But the reason people don't view a 52T Mantle the same way they view a T206 Wagner is because it simply isn't. T206resource.com doesn't show even one real T206 Wagner as ever having sold on eBay; Real 52T Mantles still sell many times over on eBay.

A destroyed, beater of a trimmed Wagner T206 is still a quarter of a million dollar card. The 52T Mantle has been on a sharp rise of late, but it is nowhere near that kind of value.

psa 6 mantles from private sellers with no real history and have no business accountability don't sell anymore on ebay as well or psa 5s or 4s..... there are wagners for sale on ebay though that the seller doesn't flat out say they are 'fake'......like I said..in the past maybe you could find a deal or two..but now they are all fake...yeah they are not 250k cards..but you can have fake cards that are 30k just as easily as one that is 250k...... please point out the next legit mantle that sells from a guy with feedback of less than 50 that nobody has ever heard of than sells a mantle for 20k+ ...maybe he found the card in the garage or he or she is selling their granfathers collection or they recently renovated a house and found them in the walls so they are all real...anyway im guessing it never happens

..once it does than I wont believe they are all fakes....basically id like to see people pointing out real ones now and not fake ones since they are fake....threads on real ones would be ok by me..but like I said anyone can do what they want...I just not clicking on anymore of those sketchy mantle listings.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

psa 6 mantles from private sellers with no real history and have no business accountability don't sell anymore on ebay as well or psa 5s or 4s..... there are wagners for sale on ebay though that the seller doesn't flat out say they are 'fake'......like I said..in the past maybe you could find a deal or two..but now they are all fake...yeah they are not 250k cards..but you can have fake cards that are 30k just as easily as one that is 250k...... please point out the next legit mantle that sells from a guy with feedback of less than 50 that nobody has ever heard of than sells a mantle for 20k+ ...maybe he found the card in the garage or he or she is selling their granfathers collection or they recently renovated a house and found them in the walls so they are all real...anyway im guessing it never happens

..once it does than I wont believe they are all fakes....basically id like to see people pointing out real ones now and not fake ones since they are fake....threads on real ones would be ok by me..but like I said anyone can do what they want...I just not clicking on anymore of those sketchy mantle listings.

You are changing the metrics from your previous statement that the 52T Mantle is in the same category as T206 Wagners. History has shown that there has never been a real Wagner sold on eBay -- by anyone. Now, you are adding the qualifier that you were only talking about 52T Mantles priced at $20,000+ and offered by sellers with a feedback below 50.

You can make the exact same point that anyone buying a $20,000+ card from a low feedback seller on eBay is a fool, not just when the card being offered is a 52T Mantle.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

You are changing the metrics from your previous statement that the 52T Mantle is in the same category as T206 Wagners. History has shown that there has never been a real Wagner sold on eBay -- by anyone. Now, you are adding the qualifier that you were only talking about 52T Mantles priced at $20,000+ and offered by sellers with a feedback below 50.

You can make the exact same point that anyone buying a $20,000+ card from a low feedback seller on eBay is a fool, not just when the card being offered is a 52T Mantle.

giving a general range......but its not just about the price....its clear there are fake holders with the mantle now...the fake holder issue is far more frequent in the mantle that some other cards in the $20,000-$60,000 price range..so again its not just about price..I said things have changed....there are fakes for less than that range now as well even in the $10,000 range...51B Mantles as well

its really going to have to be the auction route now ..

here is t206 wagner...... no one has to start a thread about it being fake......now with the mantle in that price range you no longer have too as well..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...4AAOSwT5tWMO-9


maybe should of done a direct deal on this mantle and put funds in escrow waiting to see if card was real...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-3...IAAOSwuTxWALz0

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

giving a general range......but its not just about the price....its clear there are fake holders with the mantle now...the fake holder issue is far more frequent in the mantle that some other cards in the $20,000-$60,000 price range..so again its not just about price..I said things have changed....there are fakes for less than that range now as well even in the $10,000 range...51B Mantles as well

its really going to have to be the auction route now ..

here is t206 wagner...... no one has to start a thread about it being fake......now with the mantle in that price range you no longer have too as well..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...4AAOSwT5tWMO-9


maybe should of done a direct deal on this mantle and put funds in escrow waiting to see if card was real...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-3...IAAOSwuTxWALz0

That Mantle is real. It's currently listed for 32k OBO by the seller who actually has it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That Mantle is real. It's currently listed for 32k OBO by the seller who actually has it.

looks like the fake seller got $13,500 on the card and someone gave a negative feedback saying you will never get the card...... I guess no red flag for a centered psa 4 for $13,500.......the buyer of that fake mantle should of put money in escrow and talked to the seller...or better yet not even click the listing..

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

looks like the fake seller got $13,500 on the card and someone gave a negative feedback saying you will never get the card...... I guess no red flag for a centered psa 4 for $13,500.......the buyer of that fake mantle should of put money in escrow and talked to the seller...or better yet not even click the listing..

That's why I suggested placing money in an escrow account, to see what the seller would say. I would take several additional steps in a case where the seller's credibility was an issue before actually doing it. And I certainly wouldn't just send it through paypal or a wire transfer. Scams like this usually fall apart quickly simply by requesting a few extra pictures or a phone conversation.

[rjackson44]

Jesse the card is a fake a scam why even bother