Check out these T213-2 "error cards".....Show & Tell us about your T213's

[tedzan]

Sean's original question was......
" Why did they list his accomplishments instead of his team? Was it because he was retired, so he didn't have a team? And if so why include him in the set? Was he just that popular ? "


I responded that Donlin (and Chase) were very popular ballplayers (on and off the field) in the New York scene in the early part of the 20th Century.

Now, if this T213 card of Donlin was printed in the first press run in 1914, then his team affiliation is not certain. So, perhaps this explains why ALC printed...... " .300 batter 7 years "
....in his caption.

In the 1913 postseason, John McGraw selected Donlin to go on a barnstorming tour abroad. McGraw was impressed with Donlin's performance on this tour, so he gave Donlin a chance
to play for the 1914 season. Donlin played only partime in 35 games, and retired Oct 1, 1914.

Therefore, perhaps if this T213 card of Donlin was printed during press runs in mid 1914 (or 1915), it would have had...." N. Y. Nat. ".... in it's caption.


TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

I believe it most likely that Donlin NY was issued first, in 1914, and the batting record card issued in 1915. It appears to me that Coupon issued only one printing per year for each of the three years. I also believe the first printing was before mid-July of 1914. Donlin had played for the Giants throughout 1914, just not very often or very well. He would have been on the roster in April and thus known to the set's printer.

It is possible both cards were issued at the same time in 1914, although why the one would lack a team designation seems strange. Then again,why get it so wrong on the number of times he hit .300? By the end of 1914, Donlin was coming off a poor season where all he had done was pinch hit, was 36 years old, got married, and was getting back into the performing arts. His baseball career was shot. The .300 batting record card seems most likely to me some sort of tribute card than one expecting him to play in 1915 for some yet unknown team.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are my two T213-2 Donlins. The ".300 hitter" variation seems to come up for sale more often than the "NY" card.
This .300 hitter card has the player and team caption from the above card on the sheet, if y'all can identify the name and team it would help us know when the .300 Hitter card was issued...Hummel, Brooklyn??...Marquard, Brooklyn??..What are your guesses?

[tedzan]

I agree with your guesses....it appears to be either John Hummel or Rube Marquard. The Team is definitely Brooklyn Nat.

If it's Hummel, then my guess is 1914.

If it's Marquard, then 1915 (or 1916).


Thanks for showing us these two Donlin cards. And, you're correct....the NY Nat. version is seldom seen.

Your ".300" version is especially neat in that it tells us when it was printed. As I have stated in post #51 here, my theory suggests a 1914 print date.


TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

I can't tell who the card is above Donlin--whether Hummell or Rucker. I do not believe Marquard is found with a Brooklyn Nat. designation--just Brooklyn only.

The Donlin .300 card you show is from either 1914 or 1915. I will stick to my earlier comment that it is more likely 1915. Your Donlin is not from 1916 because of the Brooklyn Nat card above it--I believe in 1916 the Brooklyn only caption was used, since the Fed Lg was kaput and there was no longer any need to distinguish Brooklyn ballclubs (which also explains Marquard, who didn't play for Brooklyn until late 1915).

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are some more pics of the captions. It looks like the caption at the top of the T213-2 Donlin .300 batter card is " Rucker, Brooklyn Nat."... if so, then I guess the Donlin .300 hitter card was issued in 1914 and/or 1915, that's why there are more of them around than the Donlin NY cards...

[tedzan]

After having given this a lot more thought, Rucker makes more sense to me....just as you guys are saying.

Donlin and Rucker were in the 350/460 series press runs of the T206 issue. Therefore, they were printed on the same sheet.
Hummel & Marquard were printed on 460-only series sheets; therefore, the card above the Donlin (.300) could not be them.

T213 cards were produced from the same printing plates used for the fronts of the T206 series. The T213-2 set comprises of
114 different subjects from the following three series of the T206 production......

Subjects....Series

46 ........ 350-only
40 ........ 350/460
28 ........ 460-only
----
114

And, of course the TEAM variations of certain subjects increases the total number of cards for a complete set to 188 (or so).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Although Mike Donlin played his last MLB game on Oct 1, 1914, American Litho (ALC) included him in their 1919 T213-3 issue.

His T213-3 card's caption simply reads Mike Donlin.


Perhaps, Mike's popularity (especially in the New York area) may explain why ALC chose to continue printing his image 5 years
after his retirement. Or, perhaps because he was still involved in Minor League BB, he might return to playing in the Majors.

In 1916, he managed a semi-pro team in NJ.

In 1917, he managed the Memphis team in the Southern League.

Also that year, the War Department chose Mike to teach BB to U.S. soldiers in France.

And in 1918, he was in California as a BB scout for the Boston Braves.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hey guys

I acquired this St Louis image of Demmitt quite a few years ago.

I have seen several of them since then. But, I've never seen the
T213-2 New York image of Demmitt.

It must be a tough card ? If you have one, please show it.







Thanks,

TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Hi Ted,

I don't own a Demmitt NY, but believe it is considerably scarcer than the StL version. As for the latter, maybe you and the T206 guys can provide some guidance here. Does the presence of Demmitt Stl suggest that the folks at Coupon got the majority of their supply from the same printer used by Polar Bear? How many of the T213-2 subjects are NOT found in T206 Polar Bear?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Hi Ted,

I don't own a Demmitt NY, but believe it is considerably scarcer than the StL version. As for the latter, maybe you and the T206 guys can provide some guidance here. Does the presence of Demmitt Stl suggest that the folks at Coupon got the majority of their supply from the same printer used by Polar Bear? How many of the T213-2 subjects are NOT found in T206 Polar Bear?

Of the 114 different subjects in the T213-2 set, 20 of them were not printed with the POLAR BEAR (PB) backs in the T206 set.

All 68 subjects in the T213-2 set that are from the 350/460 and 460-only series in the T206 set were printed with the PB back.
Twenty-six of the 46 subjects in the T213-2 set (that represent the 350-only series of the T206 set) were printed with PB.

American Lithographic in NYC was the same printer for the T206 set (with all it's approx. 5200 front/back permutations), and
the T213 cards (all 3 sets), T214, T215 (both sets).


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted, I have seen a T213-2 Demmit w/ NY on jersey in a Heritage auction a few years ago. I believe it was in a large lot of cards...Here's my STL one... My understanding is that the T213-2 set is actually complete at 185 cards, as 3 are not known from the early checklists...I used to know which 3, but I have forgotten which ones they are....Rob

[DixieBaseball]

Type 2 Gabby's :

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Ted, I have seen a T213-2 Demmit w/ NY on jersey in a Heritage auction a few years ago. I believe it was in a large lot of cards...Here's my STL one... My understanding is that the T213-2 set is actually complete at 185 cards, as 3 are not known from the early checklists...I used to know which 3, but I have forgotten which ones they are....Rob

Rob

I have never seen Downey, or one of the Sweeney's (Bill or Jeff). And, I have not seen Schlei (batting). They may exist....can anyone here confirm these ?

Also, the Catalog does not list Tinker (bat on shoulder) and I have seen this card as a T213-2.

So, I sort of agree with you that Catolog's listing of 188 cards is not accurate.



Jeremy

Thanks for posting two T213's that we have not seen yet in this thread. Your Gabby portrait is a really great looking T213-2.



Hey guys
Let's keep on posting these COUPON cards.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[edjs]

I can't really talk Coupon's the way you all can, but In will tell you that when I bought the Bridwell, it was listed as a type 2, and no back was shown (and I paid a type 2 price). What a pleasant surprise when it showed up with a type 3 back!

Ted, is this one of the Sweeney's you just mentioned never seeing?

[buymycards]

Here are 2 of the 4 Sweeney's. Bill is the Boston card and Jeff is NY.

The information below comes from Andy, who posted this in a thread a couple of years ago. I would like to thank Andy for sharing this info, and I hope Andy doesn't mind me passing this along.

The 3 missing cards are Magee, Phila Nat, McQuillan, Phil Nat, and Reulbach, Brooklyn Fed.

[tedzan]

That resolves the Sweeneys' question in my mind....I appreciate this.

Furthermore, I have seen the Schlei (portrait); but, not the Schlei (batting).
And, I have not seen the Downey (batting, or is it the fielding pose).

Do you know if these two T213-2 cards exist ?

Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are a few more scans. I have 3/4 Tinkers...still need Bat-On Chicago Nat (was underbidder on one about 6 months ago)...

A few more:

one more:

[tedzan]

You guys are the greatest. A really nice array on display of T213-2 cards.

So, now one "mystery" remains in my mind......I'd like to see the Tom Downey card (with Buffalo Fed.).
Most important to me is whether his pose is the Batting or Fielding version.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Ted, Here's my Downey (one of the few I have):


I believe I've tracked down the 20 t213-2 subjects that do not correlate to Polar Bear. Interestingly,my initial check shows that all 20 were also part of the T213-1 set issued years earlier, except one--Eddie Collins. Lew Lipset and others have speculated whether t213-1 still has a couple of undiscovered subjects, to round out the set at 70 from its current known 68. Could Collins be one of the unknown t213-1s?

[kdixon]

Here are a couple of Wheat T213-2 and a T213-3

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Ted, Here's my Downey (one of the few I have):


I believe I've tracked down the 20 t213-2 subjects that do not correlate to Polar Bear. Interestingly,my initial check shows that all 20 were also part of the T213-1 set issued years earlier, except one--Eddie Collins. Lew Lipset and others have speculated whether t213-1 still has a couple of undiscovered subjects, to round out the set at 70 from its current known 68. Could Collins be one of the unknown t213-1s?

Thanks Todd for displaying your Downey card. It's a great looking card.

I posted a thread in 2010, titled "1910 Coupon vs POLAR BEAR cards" in which I examined the apparent correlation (or lack of it) between these two backs........
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+vs+polar+bear

The 1910 COUPON set consists of 48 - MLB subjects from the 350-only series of the T206 set; and, the 20 Southern Association subjects in the T206 set. T213-1
set is complete with 68 cards. There are no expectations of any other subjects that are missing from it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by kdixon

Here are a couple of Wheat T213-2 and a T213-3

Kenny

Thanks for posting your Zach Wheat cards....great stuff.

Find the T213-3, Factory #3 and you'll have covered all the COUPON bases with Zach.


TED Z
.

[buymycards]

Hi Ted, I haven't seen the Schlei batting, but "rmasson" lists the batting version and the portrait version, both SGC40's in his SGC registry set. He doesn't show any scans for his set.

Rick

[buymycards]

One of my favorite things to do is to try to collect all of the cards of the same player from this set. Some are fairly easy, such as the 3 Mowrey cards. Others can be tough, such as the 6 Wiltse cards.

[tedzan]

The intent of this analysis is to provide an understanding of how American Lithographic produced the T213-2 set
by combining pre-printed sheets from these 3 series of the T206 production.

350-only Series ............ 44 subjects

Barger
Bender (trees)
Bresnahan (bat)
Byrne
Campbell
Chappelle
Eddie Collins (A's)
Cree
Demmitt (New York)
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (bat)
Dubuc
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Evans
Fromme
Groom
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hand at mouth)
Kelley
Knabe
Krause (portrait)
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell
Mowrey
Myers (fielding)
Oakes
Paskert
Purtell
Quinn
Rudolph
Schmidt
Speaker
Street (portrait)
Summers
Bill Sweeney (Boston)
Thomas
Warhop
Wilson
Zimmerman


350/460 Series ............ 42 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Demmitt (St Louis)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Leach (cap)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Frank Smith
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series ............ 29 subjects

Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms over head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Hummell
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Stovall (bat)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Pictured here are the Major Leaguer's (48) in the T213-1 set. American Lithographic included 29 subjects from their T213-1 issue in the T213-2 set.






Bender (trees)
Byrne
Campbell
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cree
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mitchell
Mowery
Myers (fielding)
Paskert
Schmidt (portrait)
Street (portrait)
Summers
Bill Sweeney
Thomas
Willett
Wilson


Hey guys....let's see some more T213-2 cards. Incidentally, I've never seen the Frank Smith....if you have one please post it.


Thanks,


TED Z
.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pictured here are the Major Leaguer's (48) in the T213-1 set. American Lithographic included 29 subjects from their T213-1 issue in the T213-2 set.






Bender (trees)
Byrne
Campbell
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cree
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mitchell
Mowery
Myers (fielding)
Paskert
Schmidt (portrait)
Street (portrait)
Summers
Bill Sweeney
Thomas
Willett
Wilson


Hey guys....let's see some more T213-2 cards. Incidentally, I've never seen the Frank Smith....if you have one please post it.


Thanks,


TED Z
.

Ted - Thanks for this visual of all 48 ML Type 1's.... A different perspective and angle. It would be grand to run across a sheet of Type 1 Coupons in pristine condition similar to the array of poses you show above.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Ted - Thanks for this visual of all 48 ML Type 1's.... A different perspective and angle. It would be grand to run across a sheet of Type 1 Coupons in pristine condition similar to the array of poses you show above.

Thanks....and yes, it would be nicer if it was a real 1910 COUPON sheet

Actually, I would settle for just a T206 PIEDMONT sheet of these 48 cards.

In any event, this 48-card arrangement is my concept of what a 350-Series T206 sheet may have looked like.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

How's about one more round displaying some of your T213 cards before this thread disappears to....never-neverland.

P.S......I have yet to see a T213-2 card of Frank Smith. Anyone out there in Net54-land have one to show us ?


Thanks,

TED Z
.

It's in poor condition, but here's my Smith:

[Sean]

Nice one Adam.

[DeanH3]

My two. I've posted these two so many times I hesitate to do so again, but figured I'd contribute.

[Pat R]

My only T213. Personally I think the only relationship in the printing of these
and T206's was the use of the same images.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

My two. I've posted these two so many times I hesitate to do so again, but figured I'd contribute.

Beauties! Shown many times.

[tedzan]

Thanks for posting your Frank Smith.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Beauties! Shown many times.

I never get tired of seeing these 5 "oldies but goodies".

Call me when the "novelty" of the Factory #8 card wears off


Take care, good buddy


TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Here's one of Rube Geyer, who likely was issued only in 1914. Strange in that he was supposedly going to pitch for the Pittsburgh Feds as of a report in early February, 1914, and ultimately pitched in Oakland, not St. Louis that year. One might think the set would have him in one of those two cities, but his previous team from 1913 is featured.

[tedzan]

Common to the T206, T213-1, T213-2, and T213-3 sets are the Six Super Print subjects....shown here with their seldom seen 1910 COUPON (T213-1) advertisements.
These 6 subjects were initially printed in the 350 Series of the T206 press runs in the Spring of 1910.



.



..



....


.



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

How's about one more round displaying some of your T213 cards before this thread disappears to....never-neverland.

P.S......I have yet to see a T213-2 card of Frank Smith. Anyone out there in Net54-land have one to show us ?


Thanks,

TED Z
.

Okay Ted, here's a couple:

scan0003.jpg

scan0004.jpg

scan0001.jpg scan0002.jpg

[Sean]

scan0001.jpg

scan0002.jpg

And here is one more. Does anyone know if this card comes with a Factory 8 overprint? I didn't see it on Rob's list.

[ValKehl]

I have showed this T213-3 before, but it's still my favorite:

[Sean]

Here's my only Type-1:


scan0001.jpg scan0002.jpg

Here's a few more T213-2, Schulte, Stovall, Wagner, Warhop (New York Amer.):

[tedzan]

Great cards, guys. Thanks for sharing them with us.


Val......I love your Walter Johnson, it's one of the nicest T213-3 HOFers that I have seen.


TED Z
.

[ValKehl]

Thanks Ted - your T213-1 of Matty isn't too shabby either!!
Best,
Val