T206 Coupon type 1 scarcity level?

[Leon]

With all of the talk about T213-1 becoming a T206, where would you put the scarcity level?

1. Ty Cobb - Factory 33 - District 4 - State NC **
2. Old Mill (Brown) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
3. Broad Leaf - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
4. Lenox (Brown) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
5. Drum - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
6. Uzit - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
7. Hindu (Red) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
8. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
9. Blank Back
10. Lenox (Black) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
11. Broad Leaf - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
12. Carolina Brights - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
13. Sovereign - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
14. Hindu (Brown) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
15. American Beauty - Series 460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
16. Cycle - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
17. Tolstoi - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
18. El Principe De Gales - Factory 17 - District 2 - State VA
19. American Beauty (no Frame) - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
20. American Beauty (with Frame) - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
21. Cycle - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
22. Old Mill (Southern League) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
23. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
24. Old Mill (Black) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
25. Sovereign - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
26. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 150 - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
27. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
28. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
29. Sovereign - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
30. Polar Bear - Factory 6 - District 1 - State OH
31. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
32. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
33. Piedmont - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
34. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
35. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
36. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
37. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
38. Piedmont - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

[sb1]

In the 8-12 area, not tough enough to rank with 7 or higher and definitely tougher than 13 and lower.

[barrysloate]

I'll say 13-15.

[willworkforT206]

The last few I've seen come to market sold at a premium of about 8x to 10x more than a comparable common backed T206. Such a premium level is similar to, but slightly higher than, the premium for Broad Leaf 350. Therefore, I'd say "COUPON" would fall between Lenox and Broad Leaf 350 on your scarcity chart. (On a side note, I think Lenox and Piedmont Factory 42 should swap places on that chart).

By the way, I picked up my first T213-1 just a month or so ago. It was raw, so I got to hold it in my hand and compare it to another raw T206. Except for the thickness of the paper stock, T213-1 and T206 are identical in every way. Let's just say this long-time T206 collector is officially in the "It's a T206" camp.

Steve

[tedzan]

I would rank the 1910 COUPON cards between DRUM and UZIT (or numerically 5.5) on your list.

There are many reasons for my higher ranking than others who have posted here.
Three reasons are......

In my 33 years (as an adult) in this hobby, I know of only one complete set of 68 cards.

Second, if you check out SGC's Registry, there is only one partial set (of 40) cards in it.

Furthermore, there have been several finds of DRUM, UZIT and Red HINDU cards. I know
of only one find of 1910 COUPON's.


TED Z

[rhettyeakley]

I agree w/ Scott's observation. Between 8-12.

[sb1]

We happen to have two in the upcoming auction. Time will tell how they shake out.

Scott

[caramelcard]

I agree with Scott as well.

I think tougher than broadleaf 350, but not tougher than lenox.

Type 1s are tough because of the thin stock, because collections have likely been lost in floods, hurricanes, etc. but also because Louisiana tobacco set collectors tend to keep to themselves.


Ted,

There are certain cards in the t213-1 set that are much "easier" to find than others.

I completely agree that complete sets would are very hard to come by.

That being said, I know of two complete sets in the hands of two different private collectors. One who is extremely close to all three coupon sets.


Rob

[caramelcard]

Off point, but looking at that list I don't agree with a lot of them anyways.

On this board, we've hashed out several harder backs that aren't sexy so they're overlooked.

This one comes to mind:

23. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

[drdduet]

IMO, just a bit tougher than Lenox.

[judsonhamlin]

I think around 8-9 as well. I've only got one (Howell) and i haven't seen any big groups of them for sale in a long time -going back to Lew Lipset's catalog days.

[DixieBaseball]

I would put the Type 1's in between Red Hindu's and Lenox, or possibly just after Lenox... (8-11 range) - I did a quick scan of SGC pop reports and they show 189 graded BL's and 124 Type 1 Coupons (76 Drums if your curious). I am sure there some wiggle room for error, but there is a trend from the pop report. I would be curious where PSA has their numbers pegged at to get an idea of the total # of BL's, Lenox, and Type 1's Coupon's graded. Sure, there are raw cards out there, but there is enough of a sample out there to give us indication on where Type 1's might fit in the t206 tree. I have been collecting the Type 1's for about 7 years now, and they rarely come available. They are extremely underated in my humble opinion.

[tedzan]

Sort of anecdotal, however these are the current numbers of my rare T206 back collection......

1......1910 COUPON

4......DRUM

4......UZIT

6......Red HINDU

2.....,LENOX

10....BROAD LEAF 350

12....PIEDMONT 460/42

61....AMERICAN BEAUTY 460

And, I actively seek these COUPON cards....just can't find them. Or, I am outbid when they infrequently show up.

I'm curious to see what some of you guys have ?


TED Z

[Harford20]

First, as noted by Steve, I would swap the Lenox and the Piedmont Fact 42. Then to answer the initial question, I would place the Coupon Type 1 equal to, or just slightly rarer than the Lenox. Guess that means 7.5-8 for my vote.

[ethicsprof]

t206 coupon between 7 and 8.
i'm with Rob re: the need to look at some other rankings such as
sweet cap 350/460 fact. 25---out of 'round 530 206's i only have ONE.
anecdotal,yes---but intriguing.

best,
barry

[barrysloate]

I guess my range was a bit too liberal. While trying to complete a set would be nearly impossible, back collectors simply want one of each example. As such, I don't think getting one as a type would be that much of a challenge. But I defer to the general consensus.

[drdduet]

Just a thought....

How tough would they today be if they had been considered a T206 back type all long?

My estimation that it would probably be in the top 5 of "toughness".

[barrysloate]

Well of course if they were part of T206 the number of collectors going after them would increase exponentially. But only back collectors would care, because there are no unique fronts that couldn't be found with easier backs.

[tedzan]

I completely agree with Darren. It appears that both of us feel that the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards deserve
a scarce ranking higher than others here. As, I already have posted that these cards rank between DRUM and
UZIT....numerically, a 5.5 on the list.

Look guys, in recent years there have been several finds of DRUM, UZIT and Red HINDU cards. How many 1910
COUPON finds do you guys know of ?

I know of only one find of 1910 COUPON's, and that was many years ago.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- you certainly may be correct. Drum, Uzit, and Red Hindu are in great demand whenever one comes up for sale. There just isn't as much interest in Coupon, so maybe I am underestimating its difficulty.

[DixieBaseball]

I know we have discussed it before, but are there any theories on Coupon's card stock being so thin ? Isn't this the only real reason we all speculate it is not a T206 brand ? Same year, same look on front and backs, same everything with one exception : Ultra thin card stock. I know we have discussed before, but I can't make any sense of the thin card stock and not sure there is any research to tell us why either... Speculating, would it be a simple case of when they produced the Coupon's they had a different run of card stock or possibly was it on purpose for a particular reason, like the actual Coupon cigarette packs being a better fit for the thinner card due to a really tight pack...?? Any thoughts out there ? While you ponder(Ted), here's a "high grade" Topsy...

[barrysloate]

Jeremy- nobody knows, but it may be nothing more than the paper stock that the Louisiana factory received at the time. Maybe that quality paper was cheaper than the thicker stock. I don't think that alone would disqualify the cards from being part of T206. If that were the case, American Beauty could be kicked out for being too narrow.

[Leon]

BTW, I took that original list, at top, off of the internet. It is not my personal thoughts...but it was easy and close . I would change a few around also but it did give us something quick to go on....So, not all of the first list are places I agree with completely...but, I do think it's fairly close and made for a nice discussion so far. I have 2 type 1's in my collection. Nobody used to care much about them. My, how times have changed!!

[tedzan]

Darren succintly makes a great point regarding these cards......

" How tough would they today be if they had been considered a T206 back type all long?
My estimation that it would probably be in the top 5 of "toughness". "


The demand for these COUPON cards is no where near the demand for BL 460, DRUM, Red HINDU, LENOX, etc.,
simply because they are not classified as "T206's".

Had Burdick included them in the T206 family, I have no doubt that they would be in higher demand. However,
now they are basically a regional issue that does not garner the interest that T206's do.

Consider this, most serious T206 collectors strive to acquire the basic 15 T-brand backs (if not all 35-38 backs).
And, there are 1000's of T206 collectors out there in the hobby, of which many would at least seek out a type
card of a 1910 Coupon....had it been part of the mystique that is a T206.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- agreed!

[ctownboy]

To all,

To play Devil's advocate here, couldn't it be argued that if Burdick designated Coupons as T 206's that MORE of them would have survived to this day and that they wouldn't be so rare?

I mean, as it stands now, it seems, Coupons are mostly a regional issue that is mostly only collected by people in that area of the country. Leon just said he only has two Type 1's in his collection. As a small fish in this big pond, I have a Type 1 Engle and a Type 2 Needham and that is it as far as Coupons go in my collection (compared to 19 T 206's). So, it seems most collectors only have a few Coupons in their respective collections and that is as a type card.

After Hurricane Katrina, I read (probably on this board) that a big time Louisiana collector lost most or all of his collection to the storm and flood waters. Now, if Coupons had been designated T206's a long time ago, I am sure some of those cards would have been dispersed around the country (as would have other now lost cards) so that when tropical storms and hurricanes hit the Gulf Coast, not as many cards would have been concentrated in that geographical area and thus not as many would have been lost or destroyed.

With more of a dispersement and more known to exist, we would have a better idea as to how rare they really are. As it stands now, we can only guess. Which means these cards are going to be considered rare until a collector or two decides to auction off their hidden cards and they become more plentiful to the general collecting public. Or, on the flip side, another natural disaster or two hits that area and wipes out more cards and they become even more rare.

Just my thoughts,

David

[barrysloate]

Weren't many of the tougher T206 brands regional too? Weren't Drums mostly found in St. Louis? The fact that Coupons were regional still isn't a deal breaker for me.

[tbob]

Just a quick note on T213-1 scarcity. When I was a partner in the "Southern Find" in the 80's of those tons of T213s, they were mostly series 2s and a complete set plus several extras of T213-3s and not one single T213-1. Might have just been the distribution area but I found it interesting.

[barrysloate]

Bob- Ted Z. and I were discussing that find just this morning and we were wondering what the breakdown was. That is very interesting, and may explain why the type 1's are so tough- they were not brought into the market by that famous find.

[fkw]

Id rank it about 10....

But I would never consider the T213-1 a T206 because the card stock is completely different than any of the other 15-16 T206 brands, the stock is much thinner, almost a heavy paper more than cardboard.

Hope no one goes and screws with the ACC #s on it. The set needs to be a subset of T213 as it is more related to T213-2 and T213-3 than the T206 set.

Thats the way its been collected for 70+ years since the first ACC came out, no need to change it.

[tedzan]

Frank

I respect your expertise a lot; but, we've had this argument before. And, once more I have to differ with you.

The T213-1 cards resemble T206's considerably more so than they do T213-2 and T213-3. For example, the 1910 COUPON cards......

1.....Stylish back design is consistent with the T206's (AB, BL, Cycle, DRUM) that were printed and issued in the Summer/Fall of 1910.

2.....All 68 fronts are consistent with the 350 series cards issued during 1910.

3.....The captions are printed with Brown ink.


T213-2 and T213-3 characteristics that are NOT consistent with 1910 COUPON cards......

1.....They were printed with BLUE ink captions.

2.....T213-2 cards are are found with gloss on their fronts.

3.....T213-3 cards are cut narrower than the 1910 COUPON cards.

4.....Some T213-3 cards have. overprints with Factory #8 on their backs.

Sorry guy, but using the "thinner stock" argument is very weak and smells like a "Louisiana red-herring".


TED Z

[DixieBaseball]

I still find it fascinating that there is not an example higher than Vg-Ex out there. Yes, the issue is paper like, but come on... Surely there are some crisp raw examples stuck in a book somewhere out there... For us to be this far along in the grading game and a Vg-Ex (4) is the highest example, makes me wonder how that compares to Ty Cobb, Brown Old Mill, etc. -- Would you say that all other t206 cards have higher conditions than this type ? Would this be considered the toughest condition card out of the tobacco series ?

[barrysloate]

I also respect Frank's knowledge but I will pose this hypothetical question: what if Coupon never issued any cards past 1910, and series 2 and 3 never existed. What ACC number would Burdick have designated for them?

[rman444]

That's not only hypothetical, it's rhetorical.

[Leon]

I just want to throw in a vote of support for Frank. Way to go Frank...you are my man!! T213-1 = Coupon type 1......just as Burdick said.

[drdduet]

Is Pluto still a planet? Is the cause of GRID/AIDS still unknown?

With increased capacity for knowledge comes reevaluation of any system of classification.

[ValKehl]

T213-1s to be reclassified to T206s so that my nice T213-1 Matty, which I have had for a long time and occasionally put on my trade bait list (I also have a decent McBride for my T213-1 type card), will increase exponentially (sp?) in value!!

To be serious, not being a T206 collector, I have learned much from this thread (and so many other Net 54 threads, as well), which has probably saved me from letting this Matty card go for less than it is worth.
Thanks to all, Val

[tedzan]

In my above post (#31), I have presented six (or 7) arguments that clearly delineate the the rational for classifying the 1910 COUPON
cards as another sub-set of T206's....the 16th brand, if you will.

Besides the major differences stated in Post #31, the subsequent COUPON issues (T213-2 & 3) were issued during the 1914-1919 period.
These two sets were issued well into the post-divesture era of the American Tobacco Company. Far removed from the T206 era (which
included the 1910 COUPON issue).

So, can anyone come up with as many opposing arguments to mine....that will convince most of us that this COUPON set of 68 cards is
not be considered the 16th brand of the T206 set ?

Besides the recurring "flimsy" excuse of the cardboard stock difference.

Anyhow guys, once these cards are in graded plastic, who will know the difference ? ?


T-Rex TED

I don't know anything about this but just from reading this thread and the info in it I think it works much like my business.

When I first started out I rented equiptment to do larger jobs. After a few yrs I have everything I need for my business and then some.

So you have a Company that starts advertising in 1910 (Also is there any docs to support this date) and may have little money to do it with. If they approached the ATC to print their brand on the backs of the 206 style cards they may have chose to supply or buy the cheaper paper stock which inturn would be inferior to the 206 stock of the major companies.

They (ATC?) only have to design a back font and nothing else. The Cycle and Coupon backs are identical in every way except the name. They are the only 2 that match to a T.

But he lies the issue. Is there not Type 2's printed 3-4 yrs later with the exact same poses as the T206's. Maybe the Coupon Company bought the plates from the ATC (or however it got them) at the end of the Cycle run and changed the name only, then abtained a few players (68 right), made a print run that may have not worked all that great due to the card stock, took a few yrs off and relaunched later with a new color font and better paper stock as well as more player poses due to the T206 run being done.

Is there any evidence to support that the Cycle run ended and the Coupon company printed after that. If so the Coupon is not a T206 for sure unless it was printed before the Cycle cards.

Here are pics of the backs of the Type 1 and the Cycle T206. The next 2 are of a HR baker T206 and a Type 2 Coupon Baker.

Like I said previously I don't know the 206's but I think all the clues are there they just need arranged correctly to make the final decision accurate.

DID I WIN ANYTHING

Just to add if the Coupons were printed after the Cycle run and the plates had to be shipped to LA for printing and set up would this not put the Coupon cards out till the end of the T206 runs and maybe this explains the small issue of them.

[drdduet]

hi Andrew,

I don't follow. What are you trying to say?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Just to add if the Coupons were printed after the Cycle run and the plates had to be shipped to LA for printing and set up would this not put the Coupon cards out till the end of the T206 runs and maybe this explains the small issue of them.

Those plates never left NYC...American Lithographic printed these cards.

[teetwoohsix]

Although I agree about all of the similarities between the T206 & the T213-1's,I am not for reclassifying the T213-1's as T206's.

Every point Ted Z made in post#31 is valid,but it only makes sense to designate T213-1's into the same family as T213-2's and T213-3's.The Coupons are their own family.

Barry,you made a great point-what if there were no T213-2's and T213-3's printed after the T213-1's?Well,then I'm sure this wouldn't be a discussion,because they FOR SURE would have fallen into the T206 family.But because there were a 2nd and 3rd series,it only makes sense to include the first series with the 2nd and 3rd.

There are many similarities between the T205's and the T202 Triple Folders if you excluded the middle panel of the T202.Why doesn't anyone argue that the T202 be labeled as a T205 series extension?

[barrysloate]

At the end of the day I'm perfectly content if Coupons remain classified as T-213. But I enjoy a good debate and this surely is a lively one.

Originally Posted by drdduet

hi Andrew,

I don't follow. What are you trying to say?

I don't know what I am trying to say I was just making a theory based on what I read from this thread. It kinda makes sense or is my theory to simple?

Toppcat
Also its hard to say those plates never left NYC when its printed on the backs of them that they were printed in LA. It is there in B&W. All the T206's have East Coast Factories but the Type 1's are made in LA. I am just saying.

Does the theory I posed make sense to anyone other than me? Its just a possibility.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I don't know what I am trying to say I was just making a theory based on what I read from this thread. It kinda makes sense or is my theory to simple?

Toppcat
Also its hard to say those plates never left NYC when its printed on the backs of them that they were printed in LA. It is there in B&W. All the T206's have East Coast Factories but the Type 1's are made in LA. I am just saying.

Does the theory I posed make sense to anyone other than me? Its just a possibility.

No, they DON'T say "printed in LA," they say "distr. in LA," meaning they were packaged in Coupon Cigarette packages and that brand was distributed in Louisianna.

[tedzan]

Andrew..........and, anyone else who thinks otherwise.

The American Lithographic Co. (ALC) was the America's "lithography king " firm in the late 19th & early 20th Century.
Jame Buchanan Duke of American Tobacco Co. (ATC) and ALC founder, Joseph Knapp, were very close friends and
businessmen. All sports, non-sports, and related ATC product's premiums were printed in this building in NYC.

This structure still exists in NYC at the corner of South Park Ave. & 20th Street. Nowadays, its 13 floors consist of
professional offices.



At ALC, all the ATC cards (and their cigarette packs) were printed from 1909 to 1919. Including the T205's you are fond
of. Yes, the T213, T214 and T215 cards were printed at ALC. Not in New Orleans....please dismiss that thought.

The COUPON Tobacco Co. in New Orleans (Factory #3) produced tobacco products. None of the various Factory's in the
ATC monopoly printed cards ! !

From ALC in NYC, the individual cards (and uncut sheets of cigarette packs) were shipped by rail to the various Factory's
in the ATC system.


TED Z

[Orioles1954]

I had a one-card T213-1 "find" at a Reno, Nevada antique mall two years ago

[judsonhamlin]

I have enjoyed the give and take on this debate and I've given it some further thought, so here is my take and the rationale for my opinion.

T206-1 should represent all White Bordered ATC products issued in the 1909-12 era including T213-1 Coupon and T215-1 Red Cross - both ATC issues during this time frame.

My rationale for the T213-1 follows Ted Z.'s line of reasoning, so I won't rehash that at length here. I will add that the different T216 Mino backs were lumped in the ACC, even thought the paper stock varies among the backs.
With regard to the T215-1, I believe that the rationale against inclusion is not terribly strong. The two most cited reasons (in this thread) seem to rest on the Griffith team change and the listing of "100 subjects". Neither seem dispositive. The team change issue is not dissimilar to the Demmitt/O'Hara St. Louis issues. While Griffith's team change was late in the distribution period of this issue, we have precedent and, we also have several cards where one pose was issued with a player's new team without "redoing" the previous card (e.g. Ball, Willis, Kleinow). Griffith (Wash.) could be considered in the same group as Smith (Chi. & Bos.) or Kleinow (Bos.). Again, Ted Z. has shown the back availability for these cards, so not printing a card with each new back is not inconsistent with cards within the existing T206 framework.
With regard to the "100 Subjects" issue and, for that matter, the horizontal layout, the variety within T206 backs as currently constituted includes several distinct variants (Hindu, Polar Bear, Carolina Bright), so one more design shouldn't upset the apple cart. Further, T206 backs don't always designate a specific number of subjects, and, at least within a particular back, are not accurate (e.g. there are not 350 different Cycle-backed cards). Without a "smoking gun" like a letter between ATC and ALC (like the Uzit), much of this remains speculative, but I believe it to represent substantial proof in favor of inclusion.
Moving forward with what I recognize to be a more controversial position, it is my gut feeling that T213-2, T214 and T215-2 should be joined together for many of the same reasons that have been set forth in this thread. The single proviso would be if all three brands were under common ownership at the time of issue. If so, then join them in one set; either as T206-2 or another single designation. T213-3 should, based upon date of issue, could be listed as T206-3.
Lastly, with regard to the perceived sanctity of Burdick's decision-making, I would only note that he wasn't Adams or Jefferson and we have amended the Constitution. Precedent is persuasive, but never binding - Brown v. Bd. of Ed. and dozens of other Supreme Court cases speak to that better than I can.

[FrankWakefield]

.