Nolan Ryan 7/30/90 300th win

[certainteed52]

I have a Nolan Ryan game used 300th win baseball with a Durwood Merrill LOA and a PSA LOA on the baseball and a pass ticket with 7/30/90 win THe Official date of his 300th win is 7/31/90 The Texas Landmarks & Legagies VOL.MMXVII,NO.211 paper has 7/30/90 , Goldin Auction has a 300th win poster in there auction they said was 7/30/90 ,so what I wanted to know is there a Official and Unofficial date of the win.

[doug.goodman]

According to Retrosheet, who tend to know what they are talking about, the game was on July 31.


July 30 - Witt gets the win
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1...300MIL1990.htm

July 31 - Ryan gets the win
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1...310MIL1990.htm

Doug

PS -
Just a comment, my opinion could be completely worthless, but I hate season passes for every game of a season being marked as a specific game. I'm trying to come up with a witty analogy, but suffice to say I just think it's stupid. But, there are a lot of things about the people who get paid for their opinions that I find stupid.

[mcgwirecom]

I agree with your opinion on the season passes. It is true they were good for every game. But as someone who got to use a press pass in the 70's I have to say the pass itself was not a "ticket". We had to go to the ticket window or press window and they would still give us an actual ticket to get into the game. You still need an actual seat number so you still need a ticket. As far as I know you need to do this with every kind of pass. If you could actually get in with the pass where are you legally allowed to sit?

[Duluth Eskimo]

It was the 31st. I attended the game. You can find an authentic ticket fairly easily so not sure why you'd get one of those passes. I think the season passes are stupid too. BTW, it was a fantastic game and was well worth my trip to see it. Got lucky on that one.

[certainteed52]

Durwood Merrill died on 1/11/2003 he has 13 years to correct this ball he has in his collection so that make me think that something must have happened for him to keep it in his collection!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Durwood Merrill died on 1/11/2003 he has 13 years to correct this ball he has in his collection so that make me think that something must have happened for him to keep it in his collection!

I'll bet he didn't even know about the mistake.

As somebody who sometimes spends months in a row on tour, I can completely see where those involved were wrong about the date when it happened.

When you spend that much time traveling from city to city, it's easy to forget the exact date and the exact day.

Doug

[Scott Garner]

Hi Certainteed52,

Welcome to net54!
As many on net54 know, I have been an advanced collector of Nolan Ryan since 1972.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Durwood Merrill sold many balls surrounding the months prior to his death that several people in the hobby, including myself, question as being authentic.

The inaccurate date in the inscription on the ball is one issue, which as Doug Goodman mentioned, probably was simply a matter of Merrill forgetting to write the correct date.

More important is the fact that Durwood Merrill did not work in the umpire crew during Nolan Ryan's 300th win game on July 31, 1990.
FYI, the umpire crew that night were Al Clark (who went to prison for selling fake balls to this game, Roger Clemens' 20 K game in 1986 and Cal Ripken's 2131 game), John Hirschbeck, Rocky Roe and Dave Philllips.

I recall an auction that Mike Gutierrez had during the time prior to Merrill's death in 2003 that featured many balls that Merrill claimed were game used balls related to many historic baseball games including stating that some were home run balls. I wondered how an umpire could come to own homerun balls from a game? To Mike G.'s credit, he was forthcoming and did provide Durwood Merrill's home phone number in TX to me and former baseball hobbiest and current composer/author Seth Swirsky. Merrill was affable and claimed that all of these balls were "gifted" to him while he was an AL umpire.

If you take everyone's word at face value, that's fine, but as an excellent rule of thumb, common sense and caution should be used when considering authenticity and provenance.... Just sayin'

[packs]

Kinda strange the inscription and auto aren't in the same pen.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by packs

Kinda strange the inscription and auto aren't in the same pen.

The inscription is in the hand of Durwood Merrill. Ryan signed at a separate time with a different pen.

[packs]

I guess what I meant to say was the signature looks to be under the spotting while the inscription looks to be on top of it, so I think the real question is how did he tie the ball to the game? Unless he only ever got one from Nolan.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess what I meant to say was the signature looks to be under the spotting while the inscription looks to be on top of it, so I think the real question is how did he tie the ball to the game? Unless he only ever got one from Nolan.

The inference was he got it from the umpire crew that worked the game.
But, IMHO this is pretty sketchy provenance because of the indirect (instead of direct) link to the game, plus a HP umpire which was a prosecuted felon and did prison time for faking "game balls" from this game and other historic games.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

But, IMHO this is pretty sketchy provenance because of the indirect (instead of direct) link to the game, plus a HP umpire which was a prosecuted felon and did prison time for faking "game balls" from this game and other historic games.

Which means that this item can be directly linked to a man convicted of faking the item in question.

Short of a photo match (has there ever been one for a baseball?), I think it's sadly pretty obvious that the odds of this being one of the balls faked by Al Clark are far higher than it being an actual game ball.

On a brighter note, that means this ball was held in the same hand that held every real game ball.

Doug "there is always a bright side" Goodman

[bgar3]

I wonder if there is a way you could check it for Delaware river mud?

[certainteed52]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Certainteed52,

Welcome to net54!
As many on net54 know, I have been an advanced collector of Nolan Ryan since 1972.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Durwood Merrill sold many balls surrounding the months prior to his death that several people in the hobby, including myself, question as being authentic.

The inaccurate date in the inscription on the ball is one issue, which as Doug Goodman mentioned, probably was simply a matter of Merrill forgetting to write the correct date.

More important is the fact that Durwood Merrill did not work in the umpire crew during Nolan Ryan's 300th win game on July 31, 1990.
FYI, the umpire crew that night were Al Clark (who went to prison for selling fake balls to this game, Roger Clemens' 20 K game in 1986 and Cal Ripken's 2131 game), John Hirschbeck, Rocky Roe and Dave Philllips.

I recall an auction that Mike Gutierrez had during the time prior to Merrill's death in 2003 that featured many balls that Merrill claimed were game used balls related to many historic baseball games including stating that some were home run balls. I wondered how an umpire could come to own homerun balls from a game? To Mike G.'s credit, he was forthcoming and did provide Durwood Merrill's home phone number in TX to me and former baseball hobbiest and current composer/author Seth Swirsky. Merrill was affable and claimed that all of these balls were "gifted" to him while he was an AL umpire.

If you take everyone's word at face value, that's fine, but as an excellent rule of thumb, common sense and caution should be used when considering authenticity and provenance.... Just sayin'

Hi Scott, So are you saying that some of the AL umpire may have been in some type of collusion like AL Clark!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Hi Scott, So are you saying that some of the AL umpire may have been in some type of collusion like AL Clark!

I thought I provided enough facts in my previous two posts to help clarify, but...
All I am saying is that Al Clark was sent to prison for fraudulently selling game balls to historic games. Durwood Merrill (RIP) sold game balls to games, in my humble opinion and others, that he claimed were historic that the provenance were very suspect. Examples of this are:
1) Home run balls to historic games. How does an umpire ever come to own a HR ball?
Fans catch these in the stands. Common sense would tell you that they don't give these back to umpires...
2) Selling balls to games that he didn't act as an umpire. Provenance is established by providing a direct link to acquiring a piece. How did he acquire game balls from games that he didn't umpire in?
3) If Al Clark is the HP umpire in a game that Merrill sold a ball from and Clark is a felon, that's obviously not good. The HP umpire plays a big role in controlling the game balls from a particular game. Since Merrill didn't ump this game, did he get his ball from Clark the felon? If yes, how can you feel with any confidence that the ball is legit?
Clark went to prison for selling fraudulent balls from Nolan Ryan's 300th win & other historic games.

[certainteed52]

I respect your opinion!

[mcgwirecom]

I remember seeing a bunch of the Durwood Merrill baseballs. I was interested because he had a McGwire homerun ball. I thought, maybe it was legit if the ball bounced back on the field and got tossed to the infield. Maybe the ump asked for it or told the ball boy to put it aside. But after looking up the boxscore and seeing he wasn't even at the game I turned it down. It's starts getting too sketchy when it wasn't obtained first hand.

There are some major auction houses, who I won't name because they read this board, that list homerun or game used baseballs and don't mention how they got them or any provenance.

[certainteed52]

Is it true that Nolan Ryan and Durwood Merrill were good friends?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Is it true that Nolan Ryan and Durwood Merrill were good friends?

True

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

The HP umpire plays a big role in controlling the game balls from a particular game.

How?

Once a ball is taken out of play it's dead.

The only "control" I can think of is when the umpire reaches into his pocket to put a new ball in play. And "control" is an extreme word in this context, because the ball is randomly chosen from all the baseballs in his pocket. It's not like he pulls a ball, decides he doesn't like it, pulls another ball and tosses that one to the pitcher, then puts the rejected ball back in his pocket.

(At the risk of undermining my own point, I suppose the umpire could "legitimately" not like a particular ball because he feels it's defective for some reason. But in that case, he'd toss the defective ball to the batboy, right?)

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

How?

Once a ball is taken out of play it's dead.

The only "control" I can think of is when the umpire reaches into his pocket to put a new ball in play. And "control" is an extreme word in this context, because the ball is randomly chosen from all the baseballs in his pocket. It's not like he pulls a ball, decides he doesn't like it, pulls another ball and tosses that one to the pitcher, then puts the rejected ball back in his pocket.

(At the risk of undermining my own point, I suppose the umpire could "legitimately" not like a particular ball because he feels it's defective for some reason. But in that case, he'd toss the defective ball to the batboy, right?)

Hi Gary,
My point is that the HP umpire is the only umpire in the crew that holds onto balls prior to them being brought into play as well as removing them from play. The HP umpire does toss balls out that he feels are scuffed, damaged, etc. to the ball boy. Additionally, if additional balls need to come into the game during an inning of play, the ball boy brings more out to the HP umpire. The other three umpires do not actively participate in these activities.
I hope this helps clarify what I meant...

[certainteed52]

Gary I 100% agree! Your thinking is unbiased I think that is always good when talking about someone legitimacy.

[certainteed52]

On the Nolan Ryan 300th win baseball I took it out of the PSA holder wearing latex gloves the yellowing on the baseball has a tacky feel it this something that may have been used in a game, does anyone have any ideal what this could be?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

On the Nolan Ryan 300th win baseball I took it out of the PSA holder wearing latex gloves the yellowing on the baseball has a tacky feel it this something that may have been used in a game, does anyone have any ideal what this could be?

The ball was probably used in a major league game, but NOT NECESSARILY Nolan Ryan's 300th win. In fact, I would say the odds are bad that it is from Nolan Ryan's 300th win.

Steve

[certainteed52]

Hi Steve I respect your opinion but what would make the odds bad this baseball came from one of Nolan Ryan best friends why would Nolan Ryan not speak up if it was not legitimate!

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Hi Steve I respect your opinion but what would make the odds bad this baseball came from one of Nolan Ryan best friends why would Nolan Ryan not speak up if it was not legitimate!

Just read the previous posts.

Steve

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Hi Steve I respect your opinion but what would make the odds bad this baseball came from one of Nolan Ryan best friends why would Nolan Ryan not speak up if it was not legitimate!

Nolan signed a ball for his friend, everything else probably happened after, so Nolan had no reason to "speak up".

There is reasonable doubt about the ball being from his 300th win game, and there is no way to prove that it is.

Doug

[certainteed52]

Hi Doug and Steve the big words here is PROBABLY and REASONABLE DOUBT no one has ever provided any proof to say it is not why is it so hard to say that Nolan Ryan could have gave his friend one of his 300th win game baseball.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Hi Doug and Steve the big words here is PROBABLY and REASONABLE DOUBT no one has ever provided any proof to say it is not why is it so hard to say that Nolan Ryan could have gave his friend one of his 300th win game baseball.

Probably for the same reason you can't say this ball has an even better chance of passing through Al Clark's hands. None of us was there. How about you provide some proof that it is?

You, sir, are vested in this being a ball from Ryan's 300th win. And it quite possibly could be. But most of us are looking at it from a more scientific standpoint: prove it's RIGHT. And there are too many reasons to believe it's not.

Sorry.

[certainteed52]

For example,in criminal cases, the BURDEN OF PROVING the defendant's guilt is on the prosecution,and they must establish that fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Bestdj777]

.

[certainteed52]

If this was just about the baseball I would agree but this about AL umpire Durwood Merrill some of the opinions are coming close to saying he committed FRAUD.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Hi Doug and Steve the big words here is PROBABLY and REASONABLE DOUBT no one has ever provided any proof to say it is not why is it so hard to say that Nolan Ryan could have gave his friend one of his 300th win game baseball.

The important part of this conversation is that you can not prove that the ball is from that game.

This thread started because YOU were questioning the ball.

Doug "Believe what you want" Goodman

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

If this was just about the baseball I would agree but this about AL umpire Durwood Merrill some of the opinions are coming close to saying he committed FRAUD.

It is easier for me to believe that Durwood Merrill committed fraud than it is to believe that the ball is from Nolan Ryan's 300th victory.

Merrill was not at the game.

The home plate umpire who was at the game went to prison for fraud, in regards to baseball from this game.

Merrill could have been given the ball by the home plate umpire who worked the game, and been told that it was from that game, and believed him, so he didn't necessarily commit fraud, but the ball can't be proven to be real, either way.

The ball COULD be real. Maybe. Possibly.

Probably not.

Doug

[certainteed52]

Hi Doug Yes you are right but that could go for 90% of any game used memorabilia.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

For example,in criminal cases, the BURDEN OF PROVING the defendant's guilt is on the prosecution,and they must establish that fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

Yes, exactly, and in this case the "defendant's guilt" = "ball being from Ryan's 300th game".

That makes you the prosecution.

Doug "the hanging judge" Goodman

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

Hi Doug Yes you are right but that could go for 90% of any game used memorabilia.

Yep, which is why I do not buy game used memorabilia.

Doug "if you can't prove it's real, then it's not" Goodman

[Scott Garner]

Provenance is literally everything with game used collectibles, otherwise it's a leap of faith....

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Provenance is literally everything with game used collectibles, otherwise it's a leap of faith....

And even provenance can turn into a leap of faith.

Before Al Clark got caught and went to prison, his word, as the home plate umpire for the game, would have been considered good provenance.

But then it wasn't.

Doug "just about everybody has a price" Goodman

[certainteed52]

My original post was about the date on the baseball not about it legitimacy and some of the opinion move it to where we are now.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

My original post was about the date on the baseball not about it legitimacy and some of the opinion move it to where we are now.

When you open Pandora's Box to get something, you are stuck with everything that comes out.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by certainteed52

My original post was about the date on the baseball not about it legitimacy and some of the opinion move it to where we are now.

Remember, I'm the guy who thinks that the wrong date is easy to explain. See post #6 in this thread.

Doug "at least the autograph is real" Goodman

[certainteed52]

Doug you are so right!!!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

And even provenance can turn into a leap of faith.

Before Al Clark got caught and went to prison, his word, as the home plate umpire for the game, would have been considered good provenance.

But then it wasn't.

Doug "just about everybody has a price" Goodman

Yup

[Steve D]

As a life-long Nolan Ryan fan and collector, I want to believe the ball is a real game-used ball from his 300th win; that is an item that would be the centerpiece of my collection. Then again, I've wanted to believe alot of things were real, that turned out to not be real.

Basically, for me, it comes down to this:

Are there factors about the ball that say it COULD BE real? Yes.

The problem is, there are MORE factors regarding the ball, as Doug has clearly pointed out (and that I remember reading about personally "back in the day") that lead a "REASONABLE" person to believe the ball IS NOT real.

So, while it COULD BE real, a PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE, indicates it is MORE LIKELY to be NOT real.

Steve

[certainteed52]

Hi Steve D. I am curious What do you think happened to the baseball that you consider real from the 300th win game?