Old News- Toleteros Gibson

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Why, exactly was this old thread posted on? I don't understand the point of re-hashing old threads. Then again, maybe every fake Wagner on ebay from now on could be posted on in one old thread, over and over again instead of starting a new one. I take it back. I'm sold on the thread re-hashing concept.

I rarely post on these threads discussing the Toleteros Gibson card because there is always so much misinformation and questionable motives that it drives me absolutely crazy.

But here are a few points:

1. Let's clarify the numbers right now. When I originally discovered the card, 2 or 3 years ago, I found 5 of them. Josh just posted that he found 4 or 5. Let's say 5. That makes 10. I think there are another 2 or 3 in collections in Puerto Rico. I said from the very beginning, that I would speculate the population of 1950-51 Toleteros Josh Gibson cards is anywhere from 12 to 15. Other board members can attest to the fact that I said these even when the five I found were the only ones known.

2. Sometimes I get the feeling that people believe those of us who have gone to Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc. are getting cards like this from $.50 each and then selling them for thousands of dollars. I don't know what Josh paid, but I know I paid a large amount of money for the original find of Toleteros cards. I may be wrong, but I am quite confident that Josh did not buy his Gibsons and other Puerto Rican cards for pennies on the dollar. That being the case, when large amounts of money go out, large amounts of money need to come in for a business to keep from going bankrupt. The only way for large amounts of money to come in is for some of the items that were bought to be sold, hopefully for more money than what originally went out. Leland's has been selling the Gibsons because that's why they bought them: to sell them! Why is it surprising to people that Leland's has another Gibson? It's not a new one. Anyone could have seen it themselves at last year's National. Unfortunately, the process of Leland's selling their Gibsons has made it appear that there are many more than there actually are. This doesn't change the actual number of Josh Gibson cards. It only means the general perception is inaccurate.

3. Some of these Gibsons are the same cards changing hands numerous times which makes it appear like a new one is coming out each time the same card changes hands again. Here's an example: REA will have a Gibson in their upcoming auction. What? ANOTHER Gibson!!! There must be hundreds of them, right? Well, that's actually one of the original five I found. Here is the history:

A. A collector in Puerto Rico put the set together in the early 1950's as a kid.
B. I bought the set (including Gibson) 50 years later.
C. I sold the Gibson to a collector.
D. That collector sold it to another collector.
E. That collector sold it to Hal.
F. Hal consigned it REA who will sell it in the next auction.

4. Frank Ward, are those prices from the price guide? A few years ago those prices would have been about right, but the market has changed dramatically since then. Put me in line right behind Paul for the Mendez and Hill. Actually, I take that back. Put me right in front of him!

5. Regarding the SCD price guide, it is close to becoming obsolete regarding Cuban, Puerto Rican, and other foreign issues. I did not offer any input for the 2006 book because Lemke arbitrarily changed many of the prices in the 2005 book to the point where they no longer were helpful, even as a "guide" to pricing. I had updated prices for many issues (some were absurdly overpriced, many were underpriced) for the 2004 book based on the actual market to reflect prices that they'd actually been selling for. But many prices for Cuban cards in the 2006 book haven't changed since 2002 or 2003. I also noticed that there are now some checklists that include cards that were literally never produced, but there they are in the price guide with a price next to them. Not sure how they explain that. For rare issues inaccurate pricing is particularly misleading and harmful to the hobby. Frank Ward is one of the more knowledgeable collectors and has handled many different Cuban issues. The cards he put prices by are some of the toughest in the hobby so there are not public sales records of most of them, so how could he be expected to know the "market" value, other than the price guide? And when the price guide is obsolete, it becomes useless. If experienced collectors can't find accurate information, how are novice collectors supposed to? If only there were some kind of....I don't know....guide of some kind. Perhaps one with.....prices or something like that. Yes, some kind of guide of prices. That would be great.

-Ryan

edited title to be more specific