scam alert: fake psa cards from ebay seller "cardregistry"

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't follow one aspect of this story. You say you bought the Jordan with no intent to sell it. You put it away for your son. So why did you end up sending it to Rick?

[TheEvilDoc]

[attach]Mayo2.jpg[/attach]

[TheEvilDoc]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't follow one aspect of this story. You say you bought the Jordan with no intent to sell it. You put it away for your son. So why did you end up sending it to Rick?

I sent the Reggie to Rick, not the Jordan.

I'm about to proofread this whole thing from my PC now that I have the pics up to make sure I got it all making sense!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TheEvilDoc

I sent the Reggie to Rick, not the Jordan.

I'm about to proofread this whole thing from my PC now that I have the pics up to make sure I got it all making sense!

Except that this guy is known by at least 2 authorities, not associated at all, and is probably not a good guy anyway, you really need your full name in your posts per our rules. Read what is at the top of every page in bold print concerning opinions. Nothing personal. Thanks, welcome to the forum and sorry for your misfortune.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TheEvilDoc

I sent the Reggie to Rick, not the Jordan.

I'm about to proofread this whole thing from my PC now that I have the pics up to make sure I got it all making sense!

Ah ok. I thought you were talking about Jordan because you said something about the Reggie not cracking the same way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Faking a Dmitri Young is a nice touch. Dude has a sense of humor or in your face or whatever.

[TheEvilDoc]

Originally Posted by Leon

Except that this guy is known by at least 2 authorities, not associated at all, and is probably not a good guy anyway, you really need your full name in your posts per our rules. Read what is at the top of every page in bold print concerning opinions. Nothing personal. Thanks, welcome to the forum and sorry for your misfortune.

Thanks Leon, no hard feelings here! Sorry about the rules, I will dig in a bit further tonight to try and avoid any other snafu's. I edited it to have my name in my story is there an easy way to put this in my signature? Thanks again!

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Faking a Dmitri Young is a nice touch. Dude has a sense of humor or in your face or whatever.

that is my kinda humor as well!

on a serious note:

sincerely feel for ya, jon.

if ya need any helps or tips, please reach out to me.

[begsu1013]

and this is why this thread was started...

(just wish folks would do their due diligence prior to major purchases vs. after)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TheEvilDoc

Thanks Leon, no hard feelings here! Sorry about the rules, I will dig in a bit further tonight to try and avoid any other snafu's. I edited it to have my name in my story is there an easy way to put this in my signature? Thanks again!

You are good...thanks for your understanding. It's actually a pretty good rule. And no need to dig, it's almost the only rule which is different than most forums...the rest are fairly common sense, I think.

[irv]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

and this is why this thread was started...

(just wish folks would do their due diligence prior to major purchases vs. after)

Like Jon and you, how would one really know until it is too late?

I mean the flip looks good, the number crosses, etc, etc.

How many more are out there that current owners don't realize are fake?

So, to verify if I am correct, these are real cards but are not in the class/grade the flip classifies them as?

Scammer gets real slabs but puts altered/trimmed, virtually worthless cards in them and fools people thinking they're the real deal?

How would one know if these were on E-Bay or an A/H without being able to put it in their hand, and even then, like Jon, unless you had one to compare it with, with you, you would, in most cases, assume it is real.

[bobbyw8469]

Another frustrating part of the situation was trying to get any info out of PSA security about what was going on, I was basically told the cards were fine and legit maybe Rick changed his mind for some other reason. (Yeah, right Rick is here to consign things and isn't likely to turn away money for no reason.) But if I wanted to send them in for a second opinion I could. Being 2015 at the time I took to asking Joe Orlando for help on Twitter. He blocked me 45 minutes later.

Why would Joe Orlando block you? His catch phrase is "Never Get Cheated". Seems like he would want to help someone that got cheated.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by irv

Like Jon, how would one really know until it is too late?

fixed it for you, irv.

i did not get scammed.


how you know is by googling the name you are about to give thousands of dollars to prior to giving it to them.

(he said he found this thread by googling the guy's name AFTER it was too late)



you use amex via paypal so you are protected and there is a paper trail.



cards of a certain caliber you send in to get reviewed or reholdered to verify your cards are real.

(does it suck, sure. but in comparison what is another $85 on top of a couple grand you are forking out?)



use the registry, even if not competing, so you know if a duplicate cert has been created.*


don't meet people off of craigslist.


use reputable dealers.



* that's your cue, jake! ; )

[TheEvilDoc]

Originally Posted by irv

Like Jon and you, how would one really know until it is too late?

I mean the flip looks good, the number crosses, etc, etc.

How many more are out there that current owners don't realize are fake?

So, to verify if I am correct, these are real cards but are not in the class/grade the flip classifies them as?

Scammer gets real slabs but puts altered/trimmed, virtually worthless cards in them and fools people thinking they're the real deal?

How would one know if these were on E-Bay or an A/H without being able to put it in their hand, and even then, like Jon, unless you had one to compare it with, with you, you would, in most cases, assume it is real.

Jordan is a fake card. Completely fake. The Reggie is trimmed and when I put a clear ruler across it it is obviously off 1/8-1/4" BOTH directions.

My opinion is they have a PSA 9 Jordan, then it gets cracked and the flip is harvested and reused. The card gets re-subbed (No bullshit Mayo had just received an order from PSA the first day, or at least staged a "fresh PSA order with Hologram cases) and then BAM, another legit PSA 9 flip. and the cycle continues.

I prefer BGS slabs for this very reason.

I had taken a hiatus from the hobby for a while and had no idea that these were even issues, I assumed (stupidly) that anything graded that had matching PSA numbers was good...

[TheEvilDoc]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Why would Joe Orlando block you? His catch phrase is "Never Get Cheated". Seems like he would want to help someone that got cheated.

JON SCANLON JON SCANLON JON SCANLON

Joe Orlando can shove that catch phrase up his ass. I know he knew of a problem before I contacted PSA because the cop (Detective Palombi) told me HE had spoken with Mr. Orlando. Then I reached out for help and was blocked.

JON SCANLON JON SCANLON JON SCANLON

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Why would Joe Orlando block you? His catch phrase is "Never Get Cheated". Seems like he would want to help someone that got cheated.

And yet, Joe Orlando and company are authenticating all those "grandpa's attic" finds that appear every other year. I still have faith in PSA, but as a card community, we shouldn't have blind faith in their authentication process.

And the way they moderate their forum, gives me pause about what else they sweep under the rug.

[irv]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

fixed it for you, irv.

i did not get scammed.


how you know is by googling the name you are about to give thousands of dollars to prior to giving it to them.

(he said he found this thread by googling the guy's name AFTER it was too late)



you use amex via paypal so you are protected and there is a paper trail.



cards of a certain caliber you send in to get reviewed or reholdered to verify your cards are real.

(does it suck, sure. but in comparison what is another $85 on top of a couple grand you are forking out?)



use the registry, even if not competing, so you know if a duplicate cert has been created.


don't meet people off of craigslist.


use reputable dealers.

Sorry, Bob, I thought you did as well and that was the reason you started this thread? Just re-read it, my apologies.

Good points.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TheEvilDoc

Jordan is a fake card. Completely fake. The Reggie is trimmed and when I put a clear ruler across it it is obviously off 1/8-1/4" BOTH directions.

My opinion is they have a PSA 9 Jordan, then it gets cracked and the flip is harvested and reused. The card gets re-subbed (No bullshit Mayo had just received an order from PSA the first day, or at least staged a "fresh PSA order with Hologram cases) and then BAM, another legit PSA 9 flip. and the cycle continues.

I prefer BGS slabs for this very reason.

I had taken a hiatus from the hobby for a while and had no idea that these were even issues, I assumed (stupidly) that anything graded that had matching PSA numbers was good...

As long as you can convincingly reseal the holders with a fake altered or overgraded card, it works brilliantly.

[begsu1013]

no worries, irv!

[vintagetoppsguy]

FWIW, the Jordan looks real to me, just trimmed. I would have to see the back to be sure. The Jackson is definitely trimmed. They probably buy raw (or maybe even graded) Ex/Mt to NM cards and trim them down to look NM/MT or better and put them in a fake slab with a fake flip. And, it may not even be a fake slab and fake flip. They could be the real deal. Someone at PSA could be "backdooring" them. PSA is a dirty, dirty company.

[Dewey]

Just read from first to last post. This thread is quite the education. I found this site not long ago while looking to gain info on a particular seller. These threads are important. I know no one needs me to point that out, but just my way as a relative novice of thanking and encouraging you vigilant veterans of the hobby. I appreciate it. And even more, I now understand the value of the name policy. Cheers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

FWIW, the Jordan looks real to me, just trimmed. I would have to see the back to be sure. The Jackson is definitely trimmed. They probably buy raw (or maybe even graded) Ex/Mt to NM cards and trim them down to look NM/MT or better and put them in a fake slab with a fake flip. And, it may not even be a fake slab and fake flip. They could be the real deal. Someone at PSA could be "backdooring" them. PSA is a dirty, dirty company.

No way is psa involved.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No way is psa involved.

Come on, Peter. How easy would it be for an employee to sneak out some slabs and flips?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Come on, Peter. How easy would it be for an employee to sneak out some slabs and flips?

I have no idea. I imagine they have video security and possibly other measures.

[begsu1013]

.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

FWIW, the Jordan looks real to me, just trimmed. I would have to see the back to be sure. The Jackson is definitely trimmed. They probably buy raw (or maybe even graded) Ex/Mt to NM cards and trim them down to look NM/MT or better and put them in a fake slab with a fake flip. And, it may not even be a fake slab and fake flip. They could be the real deal. Someone at PSA could be "backdooring" them. PSA is a dirty, dirty company.

Queue the old guy in the original Willie Wonka movie (which is the best btw), "No one ever goes in, and no one ever comes out!". moohaha....!

To say PSA is in on this is totally absurd. Yeah let's risk a hundreds of millions and our reputation on a couple trimmed cards and fake slabs.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Yeah let's risk a hundreds of millions and our reputation on a couple trimmed cards and fake slabs.

Reputation? Are you being serious or just pulling my leg?

This is the SAME COMPANY that graded the T206 Gretzky/McNall Wagner KNOWING THAT IT WAS TRIMMED. That card was the foundation of their business. In other words, their whole business was built on a lie.



Edited to add: I think most here would not do business with a dealer that knowingly sells trimmed cards. Then why would you do business with a company that knowingly grades trimmed cards? And knock it off with the 'but SGC...blah, blah, blah" comparison because they're no better in my opinion.

[iwantitiwinit]

How is PSA complicit in this at all, I don't see it. As previously stated the scam is simple:

1) Obtain a real psa 9 from the market place;

2) Crack open the holder and replace the true psa 9 card with a trimmed/altered card of the same subject that appears to be of high quality after the alteration (the flip is a true flip and will match the registry);

3) Sell the bogus card in the cracked holder with real flip and re-coup original money shelled out to buy the original valid card in 1) above;

4) Take the true psa 9 that you still have and resubmit to psa most likely garnering another psa 9 grade and repeat from step 2) above (all funds received from here on out are profits to the scammer);

5) Repeat over and over again.

Seems pretty simple and clear. Am I missing something? How is PSA complicit, heck even if PSA somehow noticed that someone was resubmitting the same card over and over it could be assumed that they were trying to obtain a higher grade.

I can think of only one solution, PSA has to start putting some type of marking on the card visible only under ultraviolet light. Any card they receive for grading with that marking has to ALSO BE SUBMITTED WITH THE ORIGINAL CASE AND FLIP IN ORDER TO BE REGRADED. What do you think of that solution?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

How is PSA complicit in this at all, I don't see it. As previously stated the scam is simple:

1) Obtain a real psa 9 from the market place;

2) Crack open the holder and replace the true psa 9 card with a trimmed/altered card of the same subject that appears to be of high quality after the alteration (the flip is a true flip and will match the registry);

3) Sell the bogus card in the cracked holder with real flip and re-coup original money shelled out to buy the original valid card in 1) above;

4) Take the true psa 9 that you still have and resubmit to psa most likely garnering another psa 9 grade and repeat from step 2) above (all funds received from here on out are profits to the scammer);

5) Repeat over and over again.

Seems pretty simple and clear. Am I missing something? How is PSA complicit, heck even if PSA somehow noticed that someone was resubmitting the same card over and over it could be assumed that they were trying to obtain a higher grade.

I can think of only one solution, PSA has to start putting some type of marking on the card visible only under ultraviolet light. Any card they receive for grading with that marking has to ALSO BE SUBMITTED WITH THE ORIGINAL CASE AND FLIP IN ORDER TO BE REGRADED. What do you think of that solution?

Invisible or not I cannot imagine people are ready for PSA to be putting a marking on their cards.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

How is PSA complicit in this at all, I don't see it. As previously stated the scam is simple:

1) Obtain a real psa 9 from the market place;

2) Crack open the holder and replace the true psa 9 card with a trimmed/altered card of the same subject that appears to be of high quality after the alteration (the flip is a true flip and will match the registry);

3) Sell the bogus card in the cracked holder with real flip and re-coup original money shelled out to buy the original valid card in 1) above;

4) Take the true psa 9 that you still have and resubmit to psa most likely garnering another psa 9 grade and repeat from step 2) above (all funds received from here on out are profits to the scammer);

5) Repeat over and over again.

Seems pretty simple and clear. Am I missing something? How is PSA complicit, heck even if PSA somehow noticed that someone was resubmitting the same card over and over it could be assumed that they were trying to obtain a higher grade.

I can think of only one solution, PSA has to start putting some type of marking on the card visible only under ultraviolet light. Any card they receive for grading with that marking has to ALSO BE SUBMITTED WITH THE ORIGINAL CASE AND FLIP IN ORDER TO BE REGRADED. What do you think of that solution?

Nice theory, but you're forgetting a few minor little details.

The slabs show no evidence of tampering (no frosting).
The flips show no sign of being cracked out (it's hard to crack out a card and not scratch and/or wrinkle the flip).
The same serial number on the flips are being used over and over on multiple cards (the flips are being mass produced).

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I can think of only one solution, PSA has to start putting some type of marking on the card visible only under ultraviolet light.

some think that was already started about 18 months ago w/ the higher valued cards....

but again and as ya mentioned previously....who's to say they are not cracking out going for the higher?



edit: i believe the term is called laser marking / stamping

[ezez420]

Feel free to email me for mayo's email and tell him what a scumbag he is. I have it as he contacted me a year or two ago asking for his fake card back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

some think that was already started about 18 months ago w/ the higher valued cards....

but again and as ya mentioned previously....who's to say they are not cracking out going for the higher?



edit: i believe the term is called laser marking / stamping

Hard for me to believe they are doing that without disclosure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

NM

[ezez420]

He is an old greedy guy in the slums of denver

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hard for me to believe they are doing that without disclosure.

i would tend to agree as well.

of course, fine print isn't my expertise either...

[Bpm0014]

In the Jordan rookie card picture above in post #252, it looks like it is in a cheap one cent plastic holder that is placed directly above (and center) of the PSA case. Meaning it is not in the PSA case, but rather a cheap plastic case resting on top of the PSA case. What is the reason for this?

[scotgreb]

IMO PSA could do a lot more to reduce the opportunities for scammers.

For example, at higher service levels, simply add scans of the card to the cert verification.

They could either eat the cost (unlikely) -- charge another $1, or so per slab -- or make the cert images a subscription service.

I expect this might complicate the processing of re-subs, re-holder, etc. but shouldn't be too burdensome.

Scott

[begsu1013]

or scan every card and charge a $10 fee/month to pull up actual scans....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

or scan every card and charge a $10 fee/month to pull up actual scans....

With so many cards already graded (24 years worth) not sure it isn't too late for that.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

In the Jordan rookie card picture above in post #252, it looks like it is in a cheap one cent plastic holder that is placed directly above (and center) of the PSA case. Meaning it is not in the PSA case, but rather a cheap plastic case resting on top of the PSA case. What is the reason for this?

He mentioned in his first post that he had popped the Jordan case open by using his thumbnail along the edge.

[Bpm0014]

Gotcha

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea. I imagine they have video security and possibly other measures.

You should of stopped after "i have no idea"

[cardsnstuff]

I have been trying to read all the posts here, I am curious why are still allowed to sell on Ebay? They still have many high end listings. Is ebay aware they sold fake merchandise?

[irv]

Originally Posted by cardsnstuff

I have been trying to read all the posts here, I am curious why are still allowed to sell on Ebay? They still have many high end listings. Is ebay aware they sold fake merchandise?

E-Bay doesn't seem to give a sh*t, and that is also criminal imo.

I have read many times about members informing E-Bay but nothing seems to change.
I am sure E-Bay makes out like bandits as well when it comes to high value cards so it's unlikely much will change going forward either?

[TheNightmanCometh]

As long as eBay gets their money they won't care. Someone should consider suing them. There's a lot of lawyers here; is that even possible?

[BobC]

Has it been definitively determined that these cards are being put into opened and resealed holders or, as another poster suggested, is it possible that someone has a way to simply recreate PSA's holders and just prepare fake flips to go in them? I've heard of another recent incident where the PSA 10 Ricky Henderson rookie card in the Heritage auction that just ended this past weekend was also mysteriously in the SCP auction that had ended a couple weeks earlier. The card in the SCP auction got pulled about two hours before that auction ended when someone pointed out to them that Heritage was listing the exact same card with the exact same certification number. I also heard the person who consigned the card to SCP had recently gotten it from someone in California (Surprise! Surprise!) within the last 4 - 5 months. From what I understand, neither the consigner nor the auction house could detect anything wrong or off with the PSA holder and flip so, it may not be a matter of someone figuring out how to break them open and reseal them. It very well could be that someone has taken the time and made the effort to duplicate the PSA holders. It really wouldn't be that hard to do.

I saw the Henderson rookie ended up selling for $38,240 in the Heritage auction while I heard the supposed bad/fake one in the SCP auction was in the $28K range just before it got pulled. So there is definitely enough money and incentive for these people to do this. What I'd be worried about is that these people don't use fakes cards either but, just slightly lesser grade cards to put in these fake holders/flips. My understanding is you can get a PSA 8 or 9 Henderson rookie for maybe a few hundred bucks while a PSA 10 pulls in $30-$40K. So if these people can duplicate the holders and flips, and put real cards of fairly high grades into them where the naked eye has trouble distinguishing an "8" or "9" from a "10", that is truly scary. And lord knows how many bad cards may already be circulating out there because of this.

And here's how it could get even worse. If I were doing something like this, I would probably go out and get a PSA 10 card of one of these skyrocketing rookies, and then go ahead and find the exact same card in say a PSA 8 or 8.5, maybe even a 9, depending on the cost. I'd then create a fake flip and put the lower graded card in a new holder showing it as a PSA 10, with the same cert number as the actual PSA 10 I also had. I'd then carefully crack out the real PSA 10 card and resubmit it as a fresh, new card and have PSA holster it in a brand new holder with a brand new unique cert number so that now I'd have two PSA 10's of the same card. This way you'd never have to worry about there being two PSA 10 cards out there with the exact same cert number either. Now you could do damage to the real PSA 10 card when cracking it out and destroy its value but, you'd still have the fake PSA 10 and, you wouldn't have to be successful 100% of the time you did this for it to be extremely profitable. And think about it, if the card was already graded as a PSA 10, why would someone ever bother to take it back to PSA? No one would question it.

BobC

[Peter_Spaeth]

"My understanding is you can get a PSA 8 or 9 Henderson rookie for maybe a few hundred bucks while a PSA 10 pulls in $30-$40K. So if these people can duplicate the holders and flips, and put real cards of fairly high grades into them where the naked eye has trouble distinguishing an "8" or "9" from a "10", that is truly scary. And lord knows how many bad cards may already be circulating out there because of this."

This. People are buying flips, not cards, and that is what is creating the massive incentive to commit fraud.

[BobC]

Here, here, Peter. That is exactly why I for one am happy to buy mostly raw, mid to low grade pre-war cards and stay away from what I think is a ridiculous run up in ultra high-grade cards.

BobC

[begsu1013]

curious to if it was this henderson?

and if it was, then i know first hand that the gentlemen knew it was fake as he tried to dupe it on me about 2 years ago. still have the email conversations for this very reason.

his new/changed ebay handle is thepostgameshowdotnet and he seems to change it every 6 months or so.

i think he was a very new collector and threw a bunch of money at cards that he thought were great and didn't know much about (or qualifiers).

mainly purchasing a bunch 9oc stuff but paying straight 9 money. and then trying to resell at even higher 9 prices...

I even emailed him this exact picture and he didn't even seem to think it was odd that there were 2 of the same cards/certs, etc.

then naturally takes offense that I even suggest he's bought a fake card.

similar to cardregistry's initial response.

but of course cardregistry didn't try to resell years later knowing it was fake.

even joe o sent him an email requesting him to send the card in...he wouldn't do it.