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  #301  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:16 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC View Post
Has it been definitively determined that these cards are being put into opened and resealed holders or, as another poster suggested, is it possible that someone has a way to simply recreate PSA's holders and just prepare fake flips to go in them? I've heard of another recent incident where the PSA 10 Ricky Henderson rookie card in the Heritage auction that just ended this past weekend was also mysteriously in the SCP auction that had ended a couple weeks earlier. The card in the SCP auction got pulled about two hours before that auction ended when someone pointed out to them that Heritage was listing the exact same card with the exact same certification number. I also heard the person who consigned the card to SCP had recently gotten it from someone in California (Surprise! Surprise!) within the last 4 - 5 months. From what I understand, neither the consigner nor the auction house could detect anything wrong or off with the PSA holder and flip so, it may not be a matter of someone figuring out how to break them open and reseal them. It very well could be that someone has taken the time and made the effort to duplicate the PSA holders. It really wouldn't be that hard to do.

I saw the Henderson rookie ended up selling for $38,240 in the Heritage auction while I heard the supposed bad/fake one in the SCP auction was in the $28K range just before it got pulled. So there is definitely enough money and incentive for these people to do this. What I'd be worried about is that these people don't use fakes cards either but, just slightly lesser grade cards to put in these fake holders/flips. My understanding is you can get a PSA 8 or 9 Henderson rookie for maybe a few hundred bucks while a PSA 10 pulls in $30-$40K. So if these people can duplicate the holders and flips, and put real cards of fairly high grades into them where the naked eye has trouble distinguishing an "8" or "9" from a "10", that is truly scary. And lord knows how many bad cards may already be circulating out there because of this.

And here's how it could get even worse. If I were doing something like this, I would probably go out and get a PSA 10 card of one of these skyrocketing rookies, and then go ahead and find the exact same card in say a PSA 8 or 8.5, maybe even a 9, depending on the cost. I'd then create a fake flip and put the lower graded card in a new holder showing it as a PSA 10, with the same cert number as the actual PSA 10 I also had. I'd then carefully crack out the real PSA 10 card and resubmit it as a fresh, new card and have PSA holster it in a brand new holder with a brand new unique cert number so that now I'd have two PSA 10's of the same card. This way you'd never have to worry about there being two PSA 10 cards out there with the exact same cert number either. Now you could do damage to the real PSA 10 card when cracking it out and destroy its value but, you'd still have the fake PSA 10 and, you wouldn't have to be successful 100% of the time you did this for it to be extremely profitable. And think about it, if the card was already graded as a PSA 10, why would someone ever bother to take it back to PSA? No one would question it.

BobC
You kind of lost me on the third paragraph. It wouldn't make sense financially to buy a Henderson PSA 10, crack it out and resubmit it again just so there weren't two cards with the same cert number. The chances of the same card coming back a 10 the second time are probably 1/100. It wouldnt be worth the risk. Besides, these scammers dont care if there are 2 or more of the same cards out there with the same cert number.
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  #302  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:54 PM
begsu1013 begsu1013 is offline
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correct.


no way they are popping a ten and resubbing.



in fact, they never even had a ten to begin with or even a henderson/montana


originally they'd simply print up a fake flip, jimmy the corner of a slab and insert the fake flip as seen here:


montana flip over a chip lang...






Last edited by begsu1013; 05-19-2016 at 08:56 PM.
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  #303  
Old 05-19-2016, 10:53 PM
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This whole thing makes me want to throw up.
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  #304  
Old 05-20-2016, 06:44 AM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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This whole thing makes me glad I stopped drinking the TPG Kool Aid.
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  #305  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:06 AM
charrigan charrigan is offline
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For the most part, these cards have very fake looking flips. The font is off and looks pretty obvious, to me at least.
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  #306  
Old 05-20-2016, 11:24 AM
BobC BobC is offline
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For vintagetoppsguy and begsu1013, I agree you aren't going to be able to pop a PSA 10 and resubmit it and get another PSA 10 grade every time, and I even mentioned that in my earlier post, but, only 1 out of a 100 chance of getting another PSA 10 grade?!?!?!?! Not so sure the risk is anywhere near that high. That had to be one awfully good card to have gotten a PSA 10 in the first place and to suggest that if you blindly resubmitted it as a raw card that you'd only get that same 10 grade about 1% of the time is a pretty damning accusation of exactly how arbitrary the PSA graders and their grading systems and quality control really are. I'll bet if you asked someone at PSA what the chance of just blindly pulling one of their graded cards out of a holder and resubmitting and getting the same grade was, it would be a hell of a lot closer to 100% than just 1%.

Now if you're suggesting that by breaking the card out of the holder in the first place would likely cause some damage to the card so it would never be able to get the PSA 10 grade again, well that doesn't make sense either. If PSA was to make these holders so that no matter what you did to break out a card it would have some slight damage occur to it, they would be in huge trouble. First off, there are collectors who do not like cards in these holders at all, and break them out once they own them. If doing so causes damage to the cards inside, that won't make those collectors happy. And what about PSA's business plan when they went to the half-grades? They were specifically looking to generate business by having people bring their holders back and break out those cards to have them re-graded. And if doing so caused additional damage to the cards, how could PSA ever upgrade those cards, or even have kept the same grades, without virtually lying to everyone about the grade and ignoring the damage. And finally, by suggesting such a low probability that the card would get another PSA 10 grade, you've effectively made the argument that the initial grade given to the card was virtually worthless and completely arbitrary on the part of PSA and their graders, which I am pretty sure they would vehemently disagree with you on.

However, if that arbitrary grading scenario were in fact true, then you have just given PSA, or any grading company for that matter, the ability to basically print money by slapping on a higher grade to a card that really doesn't deserve it. And that also then would completely erode the trust that collectors put into these grades and grading companies. I hate to say it but, on a certain level, PSA, or any of these grading companies, be it for cards, stamps, comics, coins whatever, are akin to the U.S. Treasury that prints our money. They have the ability by what they do to create and increase the value of items. The U.S. Treasury has special inks and paper designed so they cannot be duplicated and reproduced. What is there to protect and/or make these holders so they can never be copied or duplicated then? To my knowledge, nothing. It would likely not be a cost effective business plan. Then there is the Secret Service, FBI and Treasury Department, which are all constantly on the lookout for counterfeiters and scammers, and the myriad of rules and protections so that no one outside of the Treasury can gain access to the inks and special materials used to create our money. I'm also pretty sure that the people working in the Treasury department that are responsible for creating our currency are subject to strict control and regulation of their activities, were and are continually checked and re-checked as to their background and other factors, and watched and subject to whatever is necessary to insure as much as possible that our money is safe and not easily copied. And yet, it still happens. This is absolutely no condemnation of PSA, or any other grading company but, do you really think any of them comes anywhere within even a light year of the level of control and protection that the U.S. Treasury and our government exerts over the production, distribution and control of our currency?

All said, I feel criminals are basically lazy and the smarter ones look for the easiest, simplest and safest way for them to take advantage of others. With the recent meteoric rises we've been seeing in these ultra hi-graded rookie cards, is anyone really surprised to see things like this happening.
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  #307  
Old 05-21-2016, 07:14 AM
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Thankfully, I'm a low grade collector. I do not understand the need, or desire, to spend $30K on a Henderson RC because it's a '10.' Trust me, I get that many people want 'the best' card but that's just not me.

I'm putting together a '33 Goudey set and I usually buy raw G-VG cards. I love looking at them in a binder with all the wear and tear. I feel like this allows me to not have to worry (as much) about fakes and scams.

Eventually, the only cards I will buy graded will be the Gehrig's and the Ruths-even then I'll be looking at 'A'-2 range.
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  #308  
Old 05-21-2016, 09:09 AM
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rjackson44 rjackson44 is offline
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I bought a gorgeous Henderson rookie raw $30 😎😎😎
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  #309  
Old 05-21-2016, 11:46 AM
sportscardtheory sportscardtheory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjackson44 View Post
I bought a gorgeous Henderson rookie raw $30 😎😎😎
Yeah, but it's so much different from the ones that someone looked at.
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  #310  
Old 05-21-2016, 04:06 PM
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rjackson44 rjackson44 is offline
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i agree john
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  #311  
Old 06-01-2016, 10:30 AM
TheEvilDoc TheEvilDoc is offline
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Just want to update with pics of my flips that were from my fake 2 image.jpg
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  #312  
Old 06-01-2016, 10:32 AM
TheEvilDoc TheEvilDoc is offline
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image.jpg
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  #313  
Old 06-06-2016, 05:21 PM
TheEvilDoc TheEvilDoc is offline
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Any chance someone in here was curious about the flip numbers?? I only wonder because I post this crap last month almost a year after my encounter with Mayo and I got this email today:
image.jpg
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  #314  
Old 06-07-2016, 08:12 PM
Bob100 Bob100 is offline
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This may be a silly newbie question, but to authenticate an SGC card you just bought to make sure it has not been tampered with, can you simply send it to them to re holder (even if the holder looks fine)? If I read the SGC site correctly, this would only cost $5.
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  #315  
Old 06-07-2016, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob100 View Post
This may be a silly newbie question, but to authenticate an SGC card you just bought to make sure it has not been tampered with, can you simply send it to them to re holder (even if the holder looks fine)? If I read the SGC site correctly, this would only cost $5.
Not a silly question and, yes, a reholder should do the trick. If you don't want to risk having the card cracked out by them and reholdered (stuff happens and on rare occasions cards can get damaged), you could call ahead and ask if they could inspect the holder and card for you without the reholder. You'll also have to pay return shipping.

It is pretty tough to crack and reseal and SGC holder without some evidence, but it doesn't hurt to have things verified.
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  #316  
Old 06-08-2016, 08:57 PM
Bob100 Bob100 is offline
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Thank you for clarifying that! Really wish we didn't have to worry about all of this...
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  #317  
Old 06-09-2016, 05:23 AM
cubman1941 cubman1941 is offline
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I haven't read all the posts so maybe this has been covered. I looked at "cardregistry"'s feedback and no negatives. But I found it interesting that repeat buyers like small traditions-auctions, probstein123, pwcc_auctions and 4-sharp-corners are listed a few times. This means the fake cards could be almost anyplace by now as these guys re-sell and those buyers will never know.
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  #318  
Old 03-09-2023, 09:15 AM
TheEvilDoc TheEvilDoc is offline
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Default Mayo McNeil Busted

Sorry for digging up old bones, but if anyone wants to see an update on a long time scammer, here you go! https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...l-jordan-cards
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