Grade Tech - WOW! More and more, I really like this company

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson 

Check out this current eBay auction, and go to the link for this card.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1851312465

That CD "Report Card" is pretty damm cool. And, it offers a huge array of information that other graders do not provide (and the other guys charge more!!)

I really hope Grade-Tech gives the other big-dogs a run for their money. I, for one, will do what I can to help these guys succeed. I like their product.

People can talk about one error, but I see errors from every grader. I have a mislabelled card from SGC! Wow, big deal!! No reason to to bring the house down. Stuff happens. At least these guys corrected theirs immediately upon notification, and then came in here and discussed it with everyone! (How many graders do that? In fact, even sellers right here on this board often resort to name-calling and smokescreens to avoid the truth. <laugh> But, mostly their "errors" are intentional...)

To quote JFK: "An error only becomes a mistake when you refuse to correct it."

In Grade Tech, I see strong and promising integrity. I also see a far superior product -- not only in appearance, but in the quantity of good, usable information about each card returned to the customer. How many graders tell you why a card graded the way it did? Answer: None (except Grade Tech). How many provide you with a link to photos, scans and a "report card" for each card? None that I know of (except Grade Tech).

I know where my cards are going from now on.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

Are the images of the corners (on the slab and the CD) the actual corners of the card? If so....isn't it a bit excessive for a Nm/Mt grade?

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Posted By: leon

I agree with Mike on this one. The corners don't merit an 8 or an 8.5....I feel it would be at best a PSA 7 or an SGC 84 ......I do agree that they handled their mistake the best that it could be handled. They have a long, long way to go to catch the 2 top ones though....not that I don't root for an underdog but when it comes to the value of my cards I will still go to SGC....sort of analgous (sp?) to a rookie ballplayer being compared to a veteran player.....if it is my money I am going for the track history....AND this grade doesn't give me more confidence....maybe they need to higher those other graders quickly....also, I am just wondering (as I often do) about the ROI given the time it takes to grade the card, burn the cd, and other things they say they do....how long will they be around with so much service for so little money? just some rambling thoughts on a boring day.....best regards

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Posted By: B C Daniels

It might get a PSA 8 might!

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...but, since people so often go right back to PSA's own standards for comparison...

This is what PSA says about a NM-MT card, right from their website:

A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance. But upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: A very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

This particular card has better than NM-MT centering. It possibly has slightly less than NM-MT corners, or maybe the corners do meet the NM-MT standard. To the naked eye, the corners look good, but the "fraying" or "touched corners" don't really show up until you hit them with the microscope. There is nothing documented about the back of the card, so I assume it doesn't have the allowed wax stain. No printing imperfections and the borders look clean, as does the surface.

Under the microscope, everything is going to look very enhanced and exploded (like "split-ends") and imperfect, no matter how recent the factory cut. I've seen corners that appeared absolutely stellar to the naked eye -- yet, under a microscope, they look like a car crash.

Inmy own collection, I have too many inconsistencies anyway, between almost all of my PSA Graded cards. I have PSA 4 T206's that look far better than a couple PSA 5 T206's. But, then again, since PSA doesn't tell me what factors about the card gave it the grade it has, I have no friggin idea what they were thinking...

That's one of my main points. I can say PSA is inconsistent because they appear to be. But, I have no clue what properties of each card earned them the grade they have. No idea whatsoever...

Not so with Grade Tech. I see each specific factor that they cite and can refer to the CD for an exploded view of what they are talking about.

I dunno, Mike, but I'd think this card makes the cut. It seems to be very much in that NM-MT range to me...

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Posted By: Mike Williams

if you like the card....and the service provided, you win! While I don't think the card should merit the Nm/Mt grade, I will say it's nice to see a grading company provide more than just a slabbed card. I've often thought for my $15-40 grading fee, a bit more detail should be given as to why a card graded the way that it did. Don't tell me "altered", tell me what's been altered (The Doc can jump in here!), why a 6 instead of a 7....etc. Have a good one!

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...but, it seems like they are abiding by the Grading standard that they publish and PSA publishes. They look the same. It does seem to me like it fits into an 8.

You think PSA might be comparably too strict, perhaps? I dunno...it just seems that with the comparable criteria stated, it would fit into the NM-MT category. But, hey...what do I know, right? heh heh...

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Posted By: David

I don't like to be a grinch (if you don't beleive me, you should see how spoiled Henry is), and I have no knowledge of the grading proficiency, but it is my impression that Grade-Tech is in over their head as far as authentication goes. And, in theory at least, the grader is supposed to be the expert. Perhaps if they apply themselves, they will be compitent in a year-- but it appears to me that they are like a startup computer software company that hired 20 marketers but forgot to high someone with a computer science degree. I don't wish single them out for harsh treatment, because it is in my opinion that most graders are in over their head in this area. And even some of the things PSA & SGC do boggle my mind sometimes.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

shots of the corners should be accompanied by the strength of the microscope used. It's really amazing how frazzled an "8" corner can look magnified!

I also saw some apparent flaws on the surface of the card, but i guess they were just in the photography.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1851273768

I keep going back to the original card. What bugs me is not so much that they graded a reprint, but that they missed the grade by a lot.

If you blow up the scan, it's evident that the corners are not only worn, they are rounded off. And the top right is not only rounded off, it's crunched, really badly.

The only question for me here is if I'd be embarassing myself if I said I thought the card deserved a mercy 5 for having bad corners but nice everything else. A 7 is out of the question.

I am having a hard time with their corner scans. In the case of the 7, the corner scans all look pretty bad, but the card looks like it has worse tops than bottoms. It's hard to really figure out what you are seeing in the corner scans.

In the case of the 8, it looks like the top right in particular has a very rough touch, but I don't see this very evidently on the card scan (which admittedly is hard to blow up very well).

I think that those scans might be so heavily magnified that they make any corner look worn, except for a corner that's really worn.

What would help a good deal more is some sense of scale in the corner scans.

I think that I don't trust their grades yet, which is what it comes down to for me, foremost. I know what a NM or NM/MT card should look like it, and if I open a package and what I get is not what I think I should get, I will be disappointed. I still have lingering doubts about authentication as well. It doesn't matter how good everything else is if the grader can't grade and authenticate.

I bet that the amount of work (other than grading) that this company does is way in excess of what any other grading company does, and I kind of wonder if they will be able to keep it up and make money. It would take significant energy just to make five scans and print the labels for the CD.

If they become popular they are going to have real problems just with web hosting. The front scans they keep on their web page are a MEGABYTE in size. That is a lot of space and a lot of bandwidth.

bruce

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...the Maalox), if by your own admission, "I'm not a professional grader", then what qualifications do you have, to sit in judgement in your Kangaroo court as an expert on grading, fakes, reprints, trimming, alteration, etc., and every other aspect of card assessment... from SCANS no less (most Professional graders need the card IN-HAND to assess it accurately!!!!!!)??? You should be revered as the High Priest of grading! The grader's grader from your uncanny and unparalled ability to discern all that you do just from a scan with 100% accuracy.

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Posted By: Grade Tech Services, Inc.

I'd like to begin by thanking Dan Mathewson for recognizing Grade Tech's efforts, innovation, objectives and integrity. It is quite evident that you have studied the product and see it's merits, both now and in the future. Your comments are very much appreciated.

We are working very hard to correct the things in the hobby that many of you on board want to see corrected. We are certain that, if given the chance, we will be successful in doing so. We know that it will take time but good things are worth the wait.

One of the things that we set out to do when we began our endeavor was to be accessible to the hobbyists -- the collecting community at large. We invite your comments, both positive and negative. This is what will foster our growth and help to serve you better.

We know that many of you have challenged our grading standards and you have every right to do so. We are following the same standards for all cards that we grade with certain allowances on vintage cards, as stated on our website. However, will are happy to weigh any suggestions you may have on vintage card grading.

Mr. Moreland, I know that you have expressed concern about how we can sustain ourselves by delivering so much product for so little cost. The answer is, it's simple; that's been our mission from the start and we are committed to continuing on this path for many years to come.

We have a new product coming out in September that addresses many of the issues that the board has raised about the auction market. At the risk of sounding boastful, we believe the product is a perfect fit for the vintage card market. It embodies many of the properties that Dan points out in his review and then some. It is not yet in production but if you are interested in a sneak preview, please e-mail us or post a response.

Once again, thank you for your comments and best regards to all...

Joe Quagliano & Lloyd Glavocich
Grade Tech Services, Inc.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I'll ignore Koos' grade-school rantings and name calling herein, and from now on. He's becoming easy to ignore... <laugh>

It's a good point that Grade-10 corners, and what they look like under a microscope, should be put somewhere on the site for comparison, I think. Even Grade-10 corners, under magnification, can look distressed and frazzled.

I can't completely agree with Bruce, though, because this card compares directly to a few SCG 88's (which is supposed to be a PSA 8) that I have as well as some PSA 8's. Specifically, I'm looking at my 1961 Topps Mattys and 1961 Fleers.

I have a PSA NM-MT 8 1961 Fleer, #59, Matty (cat # 01814930)...the corners look maybe as good as this card here, Bruce. I wish I couldget a scan of this to load. They are not perfect 10 corners. They are 8 corners. And, my white borders are somewhat discolored, not nearly as white as this Grade-Tech card. And, like most of these 1961 Fleers, the centering is not great.

Same with my PSA NM-MT 8 1961 Topps, #408 (cat # 11011684). Every corner is slightly touched and the lower left corner has a wrinkle i can clearly see. Slightly discolored borders, pretty good centering. Probably an accurate 8. Not a 10, but an 8. It seems like people want a grade-8 card to exhibit grade-10 characteristics. So, I don't quite understand the points being made...

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't have a problem with the 8's. I have a problem with the ersatz T-206 7 that was originally posted. If you blow up that scan, the corners are rounded. That shouldn't be happening on a near-mint card.

The 8's look fine to me, but if you try to compare the corners with the corner scans, you come up with nothing. There is no sense of scale. I can show you a scan of a corner with the end knocked off, and you couldn't distinguish betwen VG and mint, you wouldn't know whether I made the scan at 50 dpi or 1200.

Unless I am not understanding the scan of that 7, the person who graded it is making a fundamental mistakes with their grading.

bruce

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Maybe you guys can publish, on your site, scans of what Grade 10 corners look like under the microscope? This way, people can compare and see them, and this will solve the question and similar concern...

In fact, I'd like to see a typical magnified scan of the corners of a random/average card from every grade, 10 on down to Grade-1. Show us something right from the factory, right outta the box, so everyone can really see the normal distress to the corners just from a fresh, factory cut (under magnification).

Again, one I've read the description of a NM-MT card, this one still looks to me like it fits that category. It isn't a 10, but then again, it isn't graded as a 10 because it doesn't display the characteristics of what I would expect from a 10...

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Posted By: B C Daniels

concerning your qualifications! So let me put it out here in the forum for you..What are your individual qualifications for grading?????? This matters far more than polite or professional letters!

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Posted By: Grade Tech Services, Inc.

Dan, I think that you have some excellent ideas. In fact we liked them so much that we will prototype them in the next couple of days and submit them for yours and the board's opinion. Please try this link:

http://www.grade-tech.com/pics/ungraded/opening.html

It is a non-graded "Digital Showcase" prototype, which is the same as the graded showcase, only without comments or grading opinion. I believe that your concept for corner guidelines apply on the front and back corners pages of this model as well. Does that seem like a good location to you?

We feel that this would be a great selling tool for ungraded vintage cards on eBay or Yahoo auctions. Our goal here is to leave no stone unturned when evaluating a prospective card bid or purchase. In fact, it should probably be a buyer's standard expectation to see something like this on every auction to keep things above board - it's like a card's fingerprints. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks very much for the great suggestions... We'll post some samples with a cornering index shortly.

Best regards,

Lloyd Glavocich,
Grade Tech Services, Inc.

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Posted By: Grade Tech Services, Inc.

Mr. Daniels, I'm sorry if we didn't respond earlier but I don't recall you asking for our credentials. Both Joe and I have actively collected almost our entire lives (60 years combined). We have both enjoyed productive careers; Joe, a successful independent business owner for the last 20 years and myself a NYC Financial District Technology Professional for the same period.

Joe and I have also had our own seperate card dealerships during the 80's and 90's (20 years combined) which is probably where we had gotten our best exposure and experience judging the condition of cards, albiet prior to the advent of the grading system.

After a few years of watching the hobby and particularly the grading portion of it pretty much dwell without much improvement, we decided last summer to develop a technology-driven grading model that would give hobbyists more for their money. It had literally taken 10 months, as well as numerous protyping and FOCUS groups to finally arrive at today's product. However, we will always be seeking input to improve upon it. In monitoring the board for the last week and listening to what troubles all of you the most, we definitely feel that our model is headed in the right direction.

Thanks very much for your interest. We hope to hear from you again.

Lloyd Glavocich,
Grade Tech Services, Inc.

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

I think all your thanks should be heaped upon me because i was the one who brought your grading service to light on this board,and i should be due some free graded cards,with authentic only grades because i already know a couple are trimmed.
p.s. if you agree to an authentic only grade leon will love u and hes a good guy to have on your side

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Posted By: Hey John

for an "authentic", or "unaltered" only grade, without a number........maybe we will see one now....as far as me being a good guy to have on their side that is a matter of opinion but I appreciate your sentiment.....I am rather vocal of good AND bad and will ALWAYS give a reason for what I say....definitely make my share of mistakes....and try to learn quickly from them as this new company is trying to do.......I will say that if they do an "authentic" grade I will probably give them a test card......(not a true "test" card but a card for me to test them...you knew what I meant)...... regards all....

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Posted By: Mike Williams

designation would be a welcomed addition to the hobby....BUT, as subjective as grading is....is just as subjective as the terms "authentic" and "genuine".
One look at the millions of posts regarding the '52 Mantle can attest to this. So....if these types of designations are in the works, a clean, clear definition of the term must be presented. There should be no room for gray area (i.e. "unaltered: is pretty safe).

One more thing....the T206 Mathewson still kinda bugs me. This was an easy one to spot....almost too easy. I could care less about the grade (or mis-grade), the fact that this bad of a copy slipped through is bothersome. YES...mistakes happen to every grading company and I think we as collectors have to allow the "human factor" to be considered. This company did the right thing by acknowledging the mistake....nice job! However, now that the eyes of this board are watching, future mistakes like the Matty "passing" will crush this company and they would join the ranks of ASA, AAA, PRO etc. Thursday morning ramblings....pre-coffee!

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Sorry, I still don't agree that one error (a quickly admitted and corrected error) makes the cake either way.

These guys have the credential to do what they are doing, and their overall product and service far exceeds those in the biz.

I have a couple SGC boo-boo's in my collection now. Mislabelled cards. Should we take SGC out and shoot 'em all? I think not. (Criminy, this is getting so blown outta proportion!)

Like any other Grading Co, Grade-Tech employs people who are fallible and can make an error. (Oh my God, it's true...) BcD has said on this Bulletin Board that he has sent restored and some otherwise altered cards to the Big-Boys (PSA and/or SGC) as a test. They graded and slabbed a few of his not-quite-authentic cards...so...should we take them out and shoot 'em all? Again, I think not.

PRO purposely grades and slabs trimmed altered cards. AAA slabs toilet paper, magazine articles/ads, photocopies of whatever... Should we take them out and shoot 'em? I think there's some thoughts on that subject. THese guys do INTENTIONAL crap. No way will Grade-Tech "fall into" the PRO, et al, category...

I think Grade Tech is on the right track, totally. I'll bet they've gone back to the employee that mis-graded this card and helped him/her see and better understand the error. As owners and managers of the overall business, can they oversee every card that gets graded? No, not any more than the owners of SGC or PSA do. Arguably, at the beginning, they need to see larger sample of the post-graded/slabbed cards for quality control...but they won't be able to do it forever. What they do need, though, (and I think they have this) is the ability to see an error, admit it, own up to it, correct it, and learn from it. I've NEVER seen or heard of PSA or SGC admit to anything but "being the best" blah blah blah... They've made their share of mistakes.

I like Joe and Lloyd's experience and credentials. They have the background, unlike many other business owners... CEO's of banks couldn't process a loan if their lives depended on it, but they can run the show. CEO's of Airlines are rarely (or never) pilots themselves, but they can run airline businesses. Hospital Administrators are not doctors, but they can run a hospital. These people all hire professionals to do the professional/technical work, and they manage the bigger picture and ensure overall customer satisfaction. The CEO of Libby or Squibb Pharmaceutical is not a pharmacist or a researcher, and the President of John Deere doesn't go out and build his own tractors or "run them on the farm". It's about listening to people and customers, finding out what they want, and delivering it.

I want to do what I can, personally, to help Grade-Tech...give them any advice I can offer, and see them develop their product to outshine and out-do the other guys. I think they already do, frankly, and I intend to send my collection to them for grading and holders. I think their product is outstanding and I love the extra/peripheral things that come with it. A far superior product compared to the others...

(I also found out that PSA's and SGC's "new innovative" holders aren't even UVA protected, which is disappointing...Grade-Tech's are and they are double sealed -- plus, they really are the only ones with a true tamper-prrof seal).

-dan

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Posted By: petecld

Just my 2 cents:

Dan - While agree with you whole hearted that no one should be judged for making one mistake you do have to admit the mistake was HUGE. Grading what another company would call a "5" a "7" could be considered a mistake I guess but to me it would be a simple example of what I already know - grading is subjective. BUT, missing a reprint? Even if they do label cards "authentic" like I think grading companies should - at this point an "authentic" grade from Grade-Tech isn't worth much looking at the ebay auction.

Graded cards are supposed to carry a higher level of security. In my eyes, Grade-Tech doesn't offer that. First impressions are tough to over come and my first impression of this company is that they aren't able to "recognize" an authentic card which ISN'T subjective, let alone gain my trust that they have the ability to determine the grade of a card.

About their response: Yes, they responded quickly and honestly. While I am happy to see that it is also the LEAST they can do. When SGC made the same type of error, someone was fired I believe. Is the same guy who missed the Matty still grading vintage cards? I would be willing to forgive a really obscure issue but a T206! C'mon.

Speaking strictly from an advertising/marketing POV: Showing the microscopic view of the corners will be the Grade-Tech's down fall. Collectors will now be comparing the microscopic views and analyzing the crap out of them. Yes, collectors do that now with graded cards but now it will be done on a microscopic level. Can you imagine the shades of gray that will be born when comparing cards on a microscopic level?

I can hear it now, "Hey, why isn't this an "8"? There are 3 micro-fibers sticking up and I have other "8"s that have 3 micro-fibers sticking up!"

Pulllllllease.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

but I want to mention a few things: SGC did admit to the "Merkle boner" with the T206 Doyle, PSA I can't speak for. I feel pretty safe in saying that mislabeling holders isn't the meat and potatoes of this debate. The bottom line with a grading company is trust. You should be able to speak to a live, knowledgeable person about your cards and even question why a card was graded a certain way (communication is HUGE). The company needs to be consistent with their grading and treat a "one card submission" from a 12 year old kid the same as a 100 card submission from prominent dealer.

These things (and many not mentioned) promote this trust. I really don't think Grade-Tech's mission is to screw the hobby for their own benefit (ala PRO/AAA in my opinion)....BUT....if they don't gain the trust of the end customer (due to making obvious, non-educated mistakes) they're toast. Now having said the above (and referring to my previous post), the verdict is still out on Grade-Tech. To date, they have been upfront and honest with this board. Take care!

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...But, personally, I opt for more information.

I see auctions all the time where people say "This is a 5 but it looks to me like it should have been a 6 or 7 at least..." And, I see people here that say that quite often.

Truth is, on a PSA, SGC or any other card, you have really no idea why the card is graded what it is. You get it back, and that's it. Anyone's guess why itis what it is. And, a seller can give you any reason he/she wants for the grade, because there is no real way to verify it.

With Grade-Tech's information (maybe too much information for some folks) at least you are told by them why they gave a card the grade they did. It's clear and up-front. And, if you disagree, you can come back to them and say "Hey, i don't agree that the surface should be graded this low, or this high, because..." With the other guys, you're S.O.L because you probably can't even get anyone to talk to you, let alone tell you why a grade reeived what it did. I have never been able to get PSA to tell me their reasoning for ANY grade that they have given to any card I have graded by them!

If you look at PSA's Population Report, I have both PSA-5 1951 Matty Connie Mack's All Stars. None are graded higher. However, one is clearly in better condition than the other, and I feel should at least be a grade 6. However, I cannot get them to tell me why. Never have been able to...

I prefer more information, I think a magnified corner scan is at least interesting if not very revealing. Will it spark debates? Sure, why shouldn't it? More information for the customer and potential buyer.

Over the years that I have been collecting and submitting cards to PSA and SGC for grading, they have not been consistent at all. Both now seem to be in a contest about who can be the more harsh grader. In the last couple years, I know I have submitted cards to them that 3 or 4 years ago would have gotten higher grades from them under the same standards. Their written standards haven't changed, their competitive attitude with one another has, and I believe that has affected their consistency.

And I completely do NOT agree that they treat the guy who submits a couple cards now and them with the same "eyeball and consistency" that they do with the bigger dealers and bigger dollar submitters. I know that for a fact because I know one dealer (on the Internet) who has told me about experiences he's had in the business where he now gets consistently better grades and faster service (even though he pays for the same turnarounds that he always did) with increased volume.

Obviously, some of us agree here and some don't. Still, I like what Grade Tech does and I feel like I can trust these guys. I know I can pick up the phone and talk to them during business hours and ask them questions about their grading without the sharp, holier-than-thou corporate retort you get when you question SGC or PSA. I've tried...and the "big-boys" care very little about the basic customer. I'm hoping Grade Tech will be a breath of fresh air in that regard.

-dan