T206 Blue Old Mill

[Wite3]

Is there paper loss on the back? Because Old Mill backs do not have a break in the line under "Cigarettes"...if there is paper loss, I would understand...if not, then I am not sure what is going on with this card. Maybe a scrap and they fixed the line?

Joshua

[jimross]

In fact, this OM blue variation "find" is not surprising at all, there are brown Tolstoi backs out there also. I know one collector on this board has at least one specimen of it. I can guarantee if that card ever get graded it won't be in a PSA holder since he doesn't get along with them.

It is just a matter of time for him to speak up.

[teetwoohsix]

This is an interesting card, and I don't know what to think- you have very knowledgeable collectors who have been in the hobby for years and know their cards who've seen it in person and say the card is legit.

You have SGC slabbing it, and I know TPG's can make mistakes- but I've come to trust SGC's opinion the most (of TPG's)........

If it is legit, there's no other explanation other than PB blue.

If it is legit, wouldn't that make this rarer than Brown Old Mill, based on known examples?

And, to top it off, I keep hearing Peter's words saying "What if it were done to prove a point" .....(I don't know if I have that word for word)

And no one is talking about re-backing on this one,,,,

I am surely confused. , it sure looks legit but for some reason I can't help being skeptical?

Sincerely, Clayton

[mrvster]

my sentiments exactly! i like brown om better cause it is printer scrap,(im too biased i dont own brown om tho) and the "brown" jumps out......this is factory cut card.....

altho very cool, the polar bear blue tint is not driving me wild!!!

if it were piedy 42 lite blue and handcut, i think id have heart palps, but the factory cut is not turning me on.....


not to take anything away from this card, just not as excited as i should be....i do trust sgc, they are very sharp and VERY VERY hesitant to put special items on the flip....


If this card is purchased at a very high price, im in fear some will surface....theoretically there should be more out there....



whoever owns/buys this card i am happy for, its just not doing it for me for some reason....


anything discovered in this set after 104 is very exciting, and im happy about it...but just a little hesitant right now and agree with clayton 100%


just my opinion.....not trying to offend anyone or take anything away from this very interesting card.....


BTW- Chris B. always finds THE TREASURES!! you are the man Chris , and are a true treasure hunter in my opinion, and have put 2 centerpiece cards in my collection that i am forever appreciative and can never re-pay the happiness you brought me with those cards, really great guy you are....


and to those who have put such great cards in my collection without "raping" my wallet, (you know who you are), you make me want to collect more and really realize there are truly some great people here....YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE thanks again


peace

johnny

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Johnny, I always appreciate your kind words-thanks

I'm not trying to bash the card, or the opinions of the veteran collectors who have seen it in person- usually, these opinions would be my deciding factor being that it's the closest thing to seeing it in hand myself that I can get.

And, I'm not saying it's not legit. If it is, it is pretty groundbreaking. It would also be interesting to see the Brown Tolstoi that was mentioned. I haven't been collecting as long as many of you, but I guess the thing that keeps me on the fence is that with the signifigance of the Brown Old Mill I'd think it would've been announced as a new discovery awhile back? That's all.

If I knew I had this card in my collection I couldn't contain myself from announcing it to the hobby- but I am a T206 freak and it's only because I would love to own any only known example of a card

So I'll just say I'm confused.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Bocabirdman]

and to those who have put such great cards in my collection without "raping" my wallet, (you know who you are), you make me want to collect more and really realize there are truly some great people here....YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE thanks again


plus one big one

[rp12367]

Any word on the fate of the Old Mill Blue back? Is it going to one of the major auctions, or is it already in a private collection? Haven't heard anything about it since the National. Thx

[Runscott]

But wait, there's less

Here's the rare 'Blue Sweet Caporal' Titus that just ended on ebay.

Somehow it slipped through the cracks: T206 Titus Blue Sweet Cap

[calvindog]

"Plastic sleeve included."

No wonder it sold for $13.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

"Plastic sleeve included."

No wonder it sold for $13.

I think David Mc.Donald is hoarding those Titus cards, even the reprints, as they look so much like him!!

As for the rare, Old Mill blue backed card from the National, I don't know if the owner is going to chance it at auction (if he still has it). I spoke with him at great length at the National and he was a bit unsure on how best to sell it. Private sale for "all the money" would be great for him. It's just a matter of what that $$ number is. Also, as I said way up in this thread....I think a lot of the value will be determined by this card either being included, or not included, in the complete back set for T206.

[brass_rat]

I saw the card at National and spoke to a friend of the owner (both gentlemen were behind the table). The friend said that the card was headed to the auction block shortly, but he didn't give a timetable or house.

I also examined the card (already in holder) with a loupe, as well as two different UV/black lights to help look for chemical alterations. The card looked legit and did not show any signs of bleaching. (For what it's worth, it's harder to see bleach with UV without being in a dark room, but it still possible to see signs.)

I did take pictures, but they were just with a point-and-shoot, so I'll look into posting them when I'm home (although I don't think they turned out great).

Steve

====

As a side note, here are a couple of the keychain UV lights and UV loupe I carry around at shows:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/phimiulviled.html
http://www.batteryjunction.com/titan...ylight-uv.html
http://www.precisionproducts.us/Blac...-p/l3001uv.htm

[tbob]

Ah, it is great not to be a back collector
More power to you guys who are. Other than collecting the red Cycles backs from the T207 set I could care less if a card is a factory 25 or 99 or an Old Mill or Uzit and what color the backs are.
Complete sets! Not types, not backs, just sets. We all have our obsessions

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Leon

....I think a lot of the value will be determined by this card either being included, or not included, in the complete back set for T206.

I'm curious as to how this decision will be made. If the card is factory cut, and determined to be legitimately blue, how could it not be included?

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I'm curious as to how this decision will be made. If the card is factory cut, and determined to be legitimately blue, how could it not be included?

Wouldn't there have to be at least 1 more example that comes to light in order to include it?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I'm curious as to how this decision will be made. If the card is factory cut, and determined to be legitimately blue, how could it not be included?

It could be considered an anomaly and not part of the regularly manufactured cards. An error card in essence. I won't be making the decision. That is up to the die hard T206 guys. Doesn't make a lot of difference to me though I do have most of the backs of T206 I haven't really tried for them very much.

[Matthew H]

Thanks for the reply, Leon. I understand. It could be viewed like brown old mill or blank backs. Something not issued, or a possible mistake.

[jimross]

Let's say if I said the card is sold for a 4 figure amount. Would that upset a lot of people?

[packs]

It still seems odd to me that this back is the same color back as the reprints even though this one has been judged to be authentic. Coincidence I guess.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by packs

It still seems odd to me that this back is the same color back as the reprints even though this one has been judged to be authentic. Coincidence I guess.

+1

[ullmandds]

i think a lot of people would be disappointed..and upset...if said card sold for 4 figures. def a 5 figure card.

Originally Posted by packs

It still seems odd to me that this back is the same color back as the reprints even though this one has been judged to be authentic. Coincidence I guess.

Have you seen the card in person??

[packs]

No and I'm not offering an opinion as to its authenticity. It just seems weird that of all colors this new variation happens to be the same color as the reprinted versions of the card. I would think the printer of the reprints used the blue color as a way to distinguish their reproductions from the originals. I guess its a coincidence that this card carries the same color.

The card has the same color as PB. I guess I am not familiar with the reprint color. Any chance you have a pic of one to show

[packs]

Here's a link. Check out the back. It looks very similar in color to the authentic card even though this copy is a reprint. I would just like to point out that it could be a re-fronted card. But I am not an expert and am not offering an opinion either way.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-Nap-Laj...item43b088df5a


Back of the Reprint

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I saw the card at National and spoke to a friend of the owner (both gentlemen were behind the table). The friend said that the card was headed to the auction block shortly, but he didn't give a timetable or house.

I also examined the card (already in holder) with a loupe, as well as two different UV/black lights to help look for chemical alterations. The card looked legit and did not show any signs of bleaching. (For what it's worth, it's harder to see bleach with UV without being in a dark room, but it still possible to see signs.)

I did take pictures, but they were just with a point-and-shoot, so I'll look into posting them when I'm home (although I don't think they turned out great).

Steve
====

As a side note, here are a couple of the keychain UV lights and UV loupe I carry around at shows:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/phimiulviled.html
http://www.batteryjunction.com/titan...ylight-uv.html
http://www.precisionproducts.us/Blac...-p/l3001uv.htm

Are you happy with that loupe? I need to grab a new one

[packs]

Authentic example and reprint side by side. I notice the reprint doesn't have the factory number.

[brass_rat]

Here are some pictures that I took of the blue back. It was really tough taking any worthwhile pictures, but hopefully you guys find them interesting anyways.

Side note -- yes, Mike, I like the loupe. I also carry this regular loupe on a keychain with UV lights:
http://www.nikon.com/products/sporto...elry/index.htm
(But the UV+loupe combo for < $10 is a great deal.)

Steve

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

Here are some pictures that I took of the blue back. It was really tough taking any worthwhile pictures, but hopefully you guys find them interesting anyways.

Side note -- yes, Mike, I like the loupe. I also carry this regular loupe on a keychain with UV lights:
http://www.nikon.com/products/sporto...elry/index.htm
(But the UV+loupe combo for < $10 is a great deal.)

Steve

Thanks for the response Steve...I will be ordering a set here shortly. Mike

[brass_rat]

One more thing that I wanted to point out -- see the crease on the front of the card that runs horizontally through Walsh's chest? It's noticeable on the front because of the dark jersey, but you can't see it in the photos of the back...but the crease DOES go through to the back.

This isn't proof that the card wasn't rebacked or otherwise altered, I would doubt that someone would meticulously construct a card and then put the "authentic finishing touch" of creasing it in the middle. If anything, this would potentially expose any rebacking.

Again, it's not proof, but I do think that the crease lends credence to the other wear and tear (ie rounded corners) on the card.

Steve

[jimross]

Good point Steve!

Well... buying "1 of 1" variation like this is risky. I agree that we have to find another specimen to prove their existence.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I am always dubious whenever I see a card whose corners appear to be so evenly and badly rounded, especially when the remainder of the card shows relatively less wear.
Val

This is another thing that has me on the fence about this card.

A friend and fellow board member who also attended the National and looked at the card and said it looks real. It's hard for me to have so many knowledgeable collectors say it's real and for me to still feel so skeptical

Just wondering- anyone own a PB backed Ed Walsh?

Sincerely, Clayton

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

This is another thing that has me on the fence about this card.

A friend and fellow board member who also attended the National and looked at the card and said it looks real. It's hard for me to have so many knowledgeable collectors say it's real and for me to still feel so skeptical

Just wondering- anyone own a PB backed Ed Walsh?

Sincerely, Clayton

If you showed me the front, without the back...I would have said...probably not real...but a good fake. A blue old mill back doesn't help the cause. I'm still in the skeptic corner.

Mac

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcmac

If you showed me the front, without the back...I would have said...probably not real...but a good fake. A blue old mill back doesn't help the cause. I'm still in the skeptic corner.

Mac

I have to admit I have a bit of skepticism after seeing the photos of cards beside each other, taking into account what Val said (and I agree about the massive corner rounding and lack of wear otherwise).......I thought it real this whole time but now am not in the 100% camp. I have to think SGC really put it through the ringer but still.....

[Runscott]

Curious how, if fake, they added the factory designation. I would like to see an actual hi-res scan of that area, to compare to a known real example.

[t206blogcom]

There are t206s with slight color variations that occurred after printing. For example, color changes from glue and paste or from exposure to sunlight. Who's to say this card didn't receive exposure to sunlight that faded the black ink? No real way of knowing for sure.

Or who's to say the level of black ink was running low on that particular day of printing? Since we haven't seen other legitimate blue Old Mill backs, this probably wasn't the case. Unless of course the print run was scrapped due to poor quality and a printer took one home for his kid. No real way of knowing for sure.

Perhaps we're all being taken on a ride by a really good scammer who's testing the waters with a new counterfeiting method? Think about it. Out of the blue at the most popular card show of the year, there's a discovery of a new T206 back - one of the most popular types of baseball cards. Discoveries of new T206 errors/variations in the past have brought mega price tags (e.g. Doyle 'error'). The blue Old Mill made headlines on Net54, was passed around to well known collectors and to a respected TPG company to be legitamized. Now folks are saying it would bring not a 4 figure price tag, but a 5 figure price tag. To me, everything seems too convenient and I'll remain a skeptic.

Or perhaps it's a once in a lifetime find and I don't know left from right.

[MVSNYC]

Jason- i hear you, i was skeptical too, but i (like many other collectors here) saw it in person, and looked at it under a 10x loupe. looked 100% legit to me. it was certainly a card never seen before, but had all of the correct attributes of an authentic T206 card- paper color, paper quality, toning, proper wear, etc...as per one of my earlier posts, i think they probably ran out of black ink, and ran some "polar bear" blue. that's one quick thought, but liek you sad...who really knows for sure.

[onlychild]

Don't have an opinion one way or another and have little interest but I do know a real front can be joined with a vintage paper manufactured back and get past a TPG. It's a long tough process with a high failure rate but has been done.

Kevin

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

Or who's to say the level of black ink was running low on that particular day of printing? Since we haven't seen other legitimate blue Old Mill backs, this probably wasn't the case.

......

Perhaps we're all being taken on a ride by a really good scammer who's testing the waters with a new counterfeiting method?

I agree with the first statement above. Regarding the new counterfeiting method theory, my understanding is that this card has been in an old-time collector's collection for many years - 20 or so? It could still be a fake, but the factory designation line looks good.

Still, my gut says 'not real'.

[packs]

I would just like to add that those blue backed Old Mill reprints were made over 20 years ago. The guy who has this Cobb says he's had the reprint for 25 years.

There's no factory number on the Cobb either.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T-...item337b105e20


HOWEVER, there IS a factory number on this Cy Young Blue Old Mill reprint. Reprint on the left, authentic on the right. The cards also seem to have the same darker than usual font on the front.

[Matthew H]

Whoa, the back of that Young looks awfully similar.......

[packs]

I've seen the reprints in person before and I couldn't help but see the similarities. It's either the coincidence of all coincidences or perhaps the experts were fooled on this one.

I should also mention that there are red Old Mill reprints as well which also carry the factory number.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Whoa, the back of that Young looks awfully similar.......

Yeah..

Anyone have a PB Walsh?

Sincerely, Clayton

[atx840]

I posted this image on the first page, it shows that most of the coloured reprints have the factory # shown. Looks like the Young has the "Reprint" line cut off...still suspicious.

[teetwoohsix]

A little O/T but following this thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=142480
about one T206,two names, (which is an awesome thread BTW) I'm having a hard time with the logic of not labeling (on the flip) the two different names T206's when there are plenty (although they are scarce) of examples, yet they are labeling this card (blue back) with nothing else to compare it too?

I don't know folks.

Please, if someone has a PB Walsh I'd love to see a scan if possible. Thanks.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Clayton,
Walsh is in print group 1, so he does not come with a Polar Bear back...
Be well Brian

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Brian Weisner

Hi Clayton,
Walsh is in print group 1, so he does not come with a Polar Bear back...
Be well Brian

Thanks Brian, that's where I was going with this

Glad to see you posting, hope you are feeling better.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Ronnie73]

Very interesting thought Clayton. If polar bears were not even being printed, how could polar bear ink show up on the back of an old mill card.

[MVSNYC]

if you're looking for dark blue ink, you need to look no further then Walsh's jersey.

[packs]

I'm a believer in occam's razor thinking. We do know there are reprints that carry this color and that TPG have graded reprints as authentic examples in the past.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I'm having a hard time with the logic of not labeling (on the flip) the two different names T206's when there are plenty (although they are scarce) of examples, yet they are labeling this card (blue back) with nothing else to compare it too?

+1 on the above. To add to it, another recent post discussed how SGC wouldn't indicate obvious missing colors on the flip for some T206s. It appeared, based on comments in that thread, that the graders were split on that decision.

Why SGC slabbed this Old Mill and gave it the 'blue' designation is beyond me given there are no other non-reprint examples known. Yet, when it came to missing ink variations, of which there are numerous examples, they'd only indicate certain colors but not others. Now they're starting to cherry pick which colors to list on the flip and choosing only known examples over well documented ones. They also fail to recognize other errors such as the Marquard 'comma' on shirt, despite multiple examples, but recognize a one and only blue Old Mill? It seems SGC needs to get everyone on the same page so we don't start seeing the discrepances we see from other TPGers, but it might be too late. I think SGC, given their positive reputation in the TPG world, would've taken their time to really think this one through.

To be clear, I'm a fan of SGC and I prefer them for my pre-1970 slabbed cards over others. I'll continue to use them.

But one has to question, did SGC get caught up in the hype over this card and make a bad decision?