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Old 06-24-2006, 01:51 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

I think you're flat out wrong Gil.

You hate INDIVIDUALS who commit all kinds of horrible acts, but are willing to say that that somehow equates to hating vast groups of people who share nothing in common with said heinous individuals - and I mean NOTHING.
Your reference to the 911 highjackers, which allows you rather cryptically to justify hating Muslims/Arabs, is incredibly poorly thought out. Josh K's analogy is exactly appropriate and I believe it is you who is not reading thoroughly and with fresh mind - if you fail to understand the imagery.
Your description of people and their sexual preferences, I hope, I truly hope, was an attempt to describe later mentioned pedophiles - who are again demented individuals - not groupings based on shared moral, historical and ethical beliefs.......If not, and you belive in your heart that pedophillia draws more strongly from the gay community than the heterosexual one, you are clearly not as informed as you portray, and are also substantively homophobic.

I'm Jewish.
I'm 38 and grew up in Australia and as a child going to elementary school, have clear memory of school buses going by and kids yelling out the window f@#**$@ Jew to me as I waited at my bus stop for my own trip to school.
My family is small. It is small for a reason. My mother's Dad had 5 brothers and a sister, along with parents and cousins and what not before the holocaust. After the second world war ended, there was only him and his sister, all 65 pounds of her post a stay in Auschwitz, remaining. That's all. My mom's mum was the ONLY survivor of her entire family, again, I mean from everyone she was related to. On my father's side, his Dad had 7 brothers, and a large family in total. The brothers became undergound fighters in Checkoslovakia and 4 made it through the war. But apart from a couple of cousins, everyone else was murdered.

I've spent a truly, truly, large part of my life trying to know what this has meant to me. How it has shaped what I know, what I can learn, what I'm able to truly hear from others - and not simply curl up in the world I can trust, and believe in, and love.
And I hear nothing hopeful in your words, or in your heart. I too understand the unbelievable pain of loss, and even the fear of potential loss. I've even gone to places in my head where as a new Dad of a girl 3, and boy 2, I've tried to imagine what I would do if I lost either of my children, and worse - what I would need to do to someone if they were somehow responsible for that loss. And no doubt, I would not leave it to the law. My soul would just not allow it. And I could hate the man, or woman. And I could hate the act. But I could not hate Men, and I could not hate women. No matter how grievous the attack on my heart.

So I don't read your words lightly, and I recognize that you are bright, and well read, and belive mightily in Right, and anguish strongly over wrong.
But here, for the sake of being the devil's advocate, for 'uptightness' over other people's sensitivities, you have said things that do not reflect what is best in us, and what we should strive to be, the symbols our children will reflect on and reflect to the world as they build their own moral compasses for life.

So, sensitive are the Jews.
Yes.
Somehow arguing against that experience being justifiable?
Impossible for me to understand.
You being similarly hyper-sensitive to the responses as you accuse those who question the author's motives?
Extraordinarily ungracious.

And for your ongoing ledger, as you will readily find, in the proverbial foxhole when someone is coming after you for no other reason than they Hate you, Jews like myself, Jews like Andy, Jews like Josh, and countless others, will NOT leave you alone, will be there till the end, because the fight truly is for Humanity's soul - without caveats to our own life experiences and sometimes ungenerous natures.

Daniel

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Old 06-24-2006, 01:59 PM
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Default I want my say........

Posted By: warshawlaw

That was beautiful and eloquent. Bravo.

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Old 06-24-2006, 01:59 PM
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Posted By: leon

you had your say....Gil gets one rebuttal...that's all...then you take it to private emails. Please heed my warnings....thanks much....

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Old 06-24-2006, 02:00 PM
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Posted By: leon

Adam got one in...but that's it...

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Old 06-24-2006, 04:59 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

E, Daniel: I am honored that you care enough about what I think to address me in this format. No, I am floored.

I have only read a few sentences of your presentation, and it is apparent that it is thought out and sincere. I have printed it out.

Please allow me to show you the same, or at least a portion of the respect that you have shown to me; and grant me the indulgence of reviewing your thoughts and sleeping on it.

Thank you, Sir.

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Old 06-24-2006, 05:09 PM
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Posted By: leon

Ok guys...thanks for your thoughtful answers....the rest can go to private email. Let's get back to cards, please. best regards

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