Another Example of Why there should be restrictions on Private Auctions

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

Here's a link to an ebay auction with obviously trimmed cards with a private auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1850656779&rd=1

My belief is that private auctions should not be open to everyone only those that get permission from the seller.

These are situations where I belief the bidders should be aware of the "potential" that these cards are trimmed. That seller definately goes on my never buy from list!!!!

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Moreland

The only one that looks trimmed to me is the last one. Many of the rest seem OC rather than trimmed.

So I would have to disagree that this auction looks bogus.

eBay has rules against contacting bidders, and this seems like a good reason why these rules exist.

I would hate to be in a position as a seller where a buyer sends me an angry email because he thinks that I've ripped him off, because someone else looks at a 96 dpi scan and decides that I'm selling bogus material.

If someone thinks that I'm selling bogus material, the proper person to contact is me.

I think this seller deserves the same consideration.

bruce

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Lawrie

I'm sure there is some shill bidding that goes on in private auctions, but for many it is probably a way to let bidders feel comfortable without everyone knowing that they are interested in an item. My guess is that every time Lew Lipset or Kevin Struss bids on an item, they have to contend with several individuals bidding against them just because others think the item must be nice (or rare). EBay makes it easy to find which items someone has bid on.

Plus, it keeps others from contacting the bidders for various purposes, either to try and sell other items off-line or to bitch about the seller.

This particular seller in question has pretty solid feedback, so I wouldn't be too concerned about shill bidding, which is the major problem I would foresee.

I do think your concern is valid for sellers who make a habit of selling altered stuff. The PSA and BRSZ's and others who sell PRO-graded cards, for example. You wouldn't be able to warn the bidders, after all.

Know your seller, that's all I have to say.

Tom

[Archive]

Posted By: David

As someone who dislikes Private Auctions, I agree with Bruce that one should contact the seller first before making it public. Most sellers who I have approached about problems (and make sure I'm sure there's a material problem) have made honest errors (perhaps not new to the area) and are glad to receive the info. In the rare cases where they dismiss or otherwise do not ammend their description, then I 'raise hell.'

[Archive]

Posted By: David

The problem that exists with Private Auctions, is that if the seller dismisses or otherwise does not fix the description, there's no where else to go. You cannot contact the bidders, and eBay won't do anything.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

...to warn them of auctions that don't meet your criteria/approval, everytime you bid and retract premeditatedly for no other reason but to run interference with an auction that the seller has not cleared with your tolerances, YOU yourself are in violation of Ebay by-laws, and what if you're WRONG? YOUR pencils DON'T have erasers? You seem to have a huge problem with Ebay in general. Perhaps you'd like to see them go "Out of business"? Is that your mission statement? It's a serious question. Over and over, you, the Behrens Boys, and Dan expound on the evils of Ebay. There's a reason why Ebay considers it a violation to spam bidders/winners. It's VIGILANTE-ISM. Where do you draw the line? First, it'll be, "that card is NG..a fake", then from there you'll want to impose your will on which pieces you think the seller paid too much on and want to spam on THAT accord, then at some point, it'll just be open season on Ebay sellers. SOME kind of order, or rule, MUST be maintained and Ebay has decided, obviously by the structure and wording of their rules which is very clear on the subject, "Spamming of Bidders and Winners WILL NOT BE TOLERATED". THIS, plain and simple, is why you 4 are SO frustrated by Private Auctions. Because you can't get in there and meddle any other way but by bidding, retracting with a contrite reason, and risking exposure to Ebay Investigations, since the option of bidder spamming is not open to you. Admit it. Am I lying?.
Imagine the hobby without Ebay. Collectors who live 200 miles from the nearest major shows will be denied cards for their collection. Professionals who can't MAKE the time to get to the shows, will have NO options to add to their collections other than on- line auctions (and these are ALL Private to boot!!!) by non-conglomerate Auction Houses. The way you guys go on and on about Ebay, one would think you'd be elated to see it diasappear!

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

When will you whackos learn that the 'dominoe theory' is totally bogus. Also, Doktor, please outline in detail where I have have done anything that you claim that I have done.

Yes, I do not like private auctions. But only becuase they are abused by scumbag power sellers and eBay does nothing about it. Rules are totally pointless if they are not enforced across the board. Until such time that eBay starts taking action against power sellers that abuse the system and actually set standards that make sense, the I will start taking eBays rules a bit more seriously.

Hell, if they lowered the limit on neg feedback to under 1%, a number of power sellers would lose their status as such. You can't tell me that this is an unrealistic level. Every business should strive to have zero negs, but I know that's unrealistic becuase there are peole that you can never satisfy no matter what you do.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: David

Koos, I've never bid and retracted in an auction.

I always contact the seller first. I have, when I felt it neccesary and with NO appologies, contacted the bidder where there is a serious problem that will significantly effect the value. In non-private auctions one is able to contact a bidder (a service eBay provides to its users). And, unless I am mistaken, it is my right as an American to email other people.

I will give you an example of when I contacted a seller. A seller was selling a high priced '1839 carte de visite' of a famous American. The problem is that cartes de visite had not been invented until many years after 1839. I contacted the seller and said something to the effect, "It appears you made a mistake, as the carte did not exist at the time you describe." In this case, the seller thanked me for talking to him before the carte had sole, changed the auction description and everyone one was happy.

I very rarely contact sellers or bidders, and only do it when I am certain that I am right and that misrepresentation significantly effects the value of an item. I make no appoligies for this and never will.

[Archive]

Posted By: David

Koos, within the authenticity and closely related areas in my particilar area of expertice in prints and photography, I beleive that I am as knowledgeable, careful and ethical as anyone in the world-- and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. I am also an easy going and nice person, who understands that everyone make mistakes (including me!) and that a minor misdate or misidentification isn't going to bring the world down.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I have no problem contacting buyers or sellers with information. The truth ALWAYS stands on it's own. As long as what you say is the truth then it can only hurt those that are not being truthful....take it for what it's worth.....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: David

You read my mind, Leon (I don't know who that should scare more, you or me)

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

...when I used the term YOU collectively/generally. And you're right, some folks you CAN'T make happy, no matter what. The fact that MY feedback is 615 positive against 1 RETALIATORY negative from a bidder/winner NEVER getting back in touch with me, or sending payment should speak VOLUMES on my selling credentials ESPECIALLY when you consider that my average sale item is WELL in excess of $1000 and UNSLABBED. In a field where it's hard to make everyone happy no matter how far you bend over backwards, somehow, I've done the unthinkable (I mean, I AM the Devil himself, aren't I?) and MADE EVERYONE WHO'S DEALT WITH ME HAPPY ABOUT THE OUTCOME. My one negative came from a buyer who never took delivery or sent payment for the merchandise saying in the feedback that "I never contacted HIM". Rubbish! A 1% margin of error that Ebay allows to maintain Power-Seller Status IS a good benchmark. Take RunScott for example. He said in one of his posts, "I've negatived 10 sellers out of my last 100 purchases!". That's 10%. Some buyers have an "itchy trigger finger". Others are more patient. I think that if you can please 99 out of 100 of your buyers enough for POSITIVE feedback to be left, you're the exception rather than the rule, and you SHOULD be commended. YES, I know! There are guys with feedbacks of 2000 with no negatives. But these guys usually sell primarily merchandise where there is no grading, no matter of opinion, and low dollar amounts at stake (DVDs, pots and pans, Sega game cartidges). Simplicity itself..box it and stick an address label on it. Take a look and see how many Gold-Power-Sellers dealing in 90% unslabbed HIGH GRADE, UPPER ECHELON paper collectibles there are with transactions usually between $1000 and $25,000, and a feedback of 615 positives against 1 negative. Let me know when you find him.

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

Just to let you know I did try to contact the seller with NO response. I pointed out that the cards looked trimmed, especially the ATZ card and that he should send measurements of the card to the top bidders. Nothing too harsh just pointing out the facts.

By the way Bruce, is it alright to have one trimmed card in a lot of 8 and not be mentioned? Seems like your hiding junk in a trreasure chest.

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: John(z28jd)

I never bid on private auctions,and this one wont convince me that theyre a good idea,$326 for 8 commons with blurry scans.I dont believe this was a legit auction and i wont be bidding on any of his auctions. If it is legit,its too bad for him for using a private auction,but im sure he wont mind because hes getting over 40 bucks each for t206 commons with blurry scans.Brings back fond memories of "the danbuzz network" except his werent private and we knew who was doing the schill bidding.Notice how hes doing now?

[Archive]

Posted By: goudey guy

Trimmed cards always present moral conflicts within our hobby. Since so many people in our hobby have 100% motivation for $, and a very low % of interest in the cards themselves, your going to see a massive number of auctions every week for trimmed cards. Obviously, the seller should show some honor, and put the trimmed information in his description. Reality is that most do not. Now this doesn't really upset me because trimmed cards are a huge factor in the hobby, and as an informed collector, I can usually spot the difference. What I do find offesive is the sellers who repeatedly sell trimmed items that are not describing them as such, and therefore make it seem like they are the ones who are doing the trimming themselves. This is the type of seller that should be shot for defacing the "natural aging" of the card.

So if this seller seems to be one of those parasites that continually deal trimmed cards, I don't blame the author of this thread for getting ticked off. However, if they don't typically do this, or, the cards themselves are difficult to mark as trimmed, I'm not sure that the issue is that important.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

..you DO!! Each and every time "you've" (collectively) bid in an Auction, past and present, (Sotheby's, Lelands, Teletrade, Rotman, Sportscards, Manning, Mastro, Mr.Mint, Lipset, etc. etc. etc....."you" are bidding in a PRIVATE auction. Some of which seemingly have no closure at the end by means of rules allowing for specified periods of time to elapse AFTER the end of the auction with no definite ending if the bids keep coming. At least with Ebay, when the auction hits "ZERO-hour" you know if you've won a card or not.

[Archive]

Posted By: John(z28jd)

youre right,but the only private auction ive ever bid on was from james verrill,and ive dealt with him more than enough times to build a trust with him,so maybe i shouldve specified that better.I also would bid on stuff from the bigger auction places but never have in the past(or near future),specifically that statement above was for ebay but i didnt state that.sorry

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

..and I would have no qualms bidding in any of his private auctions. I DO agree, that a Private Auction CAN invite problems. In the final analysis, it's WHOSE Private auction you feel comfortable participating in. If I see an item up for Private Auction that is being offered by a seller with impeccable credentials based on his feedback numbers (if I haven't dealt with him priorly) and the item offered is analguous to 90% of the OTHER items he's offered, I'm going to think positively about bidding and going all out to win the piece. If however, I see a Private auction on a piece I'm interested in acquiring, the feedback is low, and appears to be mostly from entirely unrelated items, I'm going to pass. BUT, I'm going to follow these two general rules of thumb REGARDLESS of if the auction is Private ot not. The PRIVACY factor isn't going to deter me. A bad, nebulous, or unrelated items auctioned Ebay track record is what is going to determine my bidding, NOT just the Privacy factor itself.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay berhens

well, at least I won't have to worry about you bidding on my auctions then, since I qould fall into your selling unrelated items catagory. I have sold records, action figures, video tapes, tv scripts, dolls, pinbacks, comics, coins, stamps, magazines, photos, lunch pails, puppets, old radios and numerous other items I am forgetting.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Of course Private Auctions invite trouble... Especially when the item(s) being auctioned are item(s) which the seller has already publicly acclaimed as being worthless. Of course, it's easy to look at the seller's history/feedback and make some determination whether or not to bid, unless the seller is too scared to make his own feedback public and hides his feedback from everyone. Of course, I can't imagine why someone would EVER want to hide a great, long history of positive feedback, unless there's truly something that needs to be hidden from everyone...

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

Some sellers make their feedback private because they don't want their bidders contacted. Contacting someone else's bidders while an auction is ongoing is against ebay's rules, but there is no problem with contacting a winning bidder after the auction ends to give them info about their purchase that the seller neglected to include in his/her description. Naturally, someone who is selling altered cards would not want their victims contacted with that information. There are also situations where someone gets a bug up their *ss and uses the feedback list to send spam to your buyers or just 'dis you - a legitimate use of private feedback;however, if your customers are truly satisfied, they would probably contact you with the name of the offendor if this ever happened.

Sellers make their auctions private for the same reason, but in addition, it can also be used to hide shill bidding accounts - I suspect that Libertyforall uses it for that reason. Since ebay doesn't give a flip about shill bidding, it is a perfect way for Libertyforall to prime the tip jar.

Some sellers also use private auctions to simulate "real" non-ebay auctions, especially for high-end items. Scott Gaynor occasionally does this and I have no problem with it.

--------------------------------------------
no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions