1947 bond bread

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Posted By: scott

I recieved my Bonds cards back from GAI about a month ago. I remember there was some discussion regarding these and i said i would post them. Well here they are. Is anyone here collecting them ? Right now i don't have a huge interest in them. But would love to get some feedback as to thoughts about the rounded corners vs squared now that GAI is confident that the square corners are legit.



legit.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Glad to see this...

as I am sending three to GAI next week that have square corners.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I don't recall if a consensus was reached the last time we went through this, but it would be interesting to know what GAI did to determine the cards were issued in 1947 or whenever Hal determined they were actually issued as opposed to being later sheet cuts or reprints.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I had said that there were rectangular cards that were genuine, and I beleive Adam W. said the same. Whether or not the cards have been reprinted (What hasn't been reprinted these days?), the genuine vintage cards are identified by close examination of the printing.

Whether a particular card was printed on a Tuesday morning or a Thursday afternoon, I'll let Hal work on that.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I have a list of all the workers at the factory where the cards were made...

and a schedule of when they worked...

so the DNA testing should answer all of these questions.

Of course, instead of sending my cards to GAI...

I had to send them to CSI.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hal,

As you are a "purist" regarding ROOKIE cards, I have to
take issue with you with respect to these Reprints. Didn't
we "beat this subject to death" last month ? We certainly
did and the conclusion most of us arrived at was that only
the "beveled" cornered cards are the true originals issued
in 1947.

Recall, I did reinforce this argument, since as a 9-year
old, these were the first BB cards I acquired. And, I
still have all my cards from my youth, and there are no
"square-cornered" ones from this set.

To possibly resolve when these Reprints were issued, I can
only suggest contacting David Festburg, who as you probably
know made a huge discovery of them sometime back.

Sorry, I brought this up again. But, perhaps, it may stimulate
meaningful discussion that will result in solving the ongoing
mystery as to when these Reprints were issued.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ted:

From what I have been told by the folks who examined many of these "square corner" cards and the "rounded" cards at the SAME place and time...

they were able to determine several things:

1) All of the "rounded" corners appear to have been HAND CUT at the factory in 1947, because there is no "uniformity" whatsoever to ANY of the "rounded" corners on these cards.

2) A large number of "uncut" cards from this set were indeed found later... but they were PRINTED back in 1947 and then just never distributed. These have "square corners" but are identical in paper and printing when compared under microscope to the "round" ones.

3) Then there are even MORE "square" corner cards from this set that are simply REPRINTS made in modern times that are essentially worthless.

----------------------------------

This explains why you never collected any "square" ones in 1947... because the corners were all cut at the factory before they were inserted into the packages of bread (probably to prevent snagging and TEARING the bag into which the BREAD was being placed).

BUT... it also means that there ARE "square cornered" versions of the cards that are "real" and which were made in 1947 (and just never cut and distributed with bread).

SURE... I would PREFER to have the ROUND ones...

but as long as GAI knows how to tell a "square" card made in 1947 from a "square" reprint made in 1987...

then I am OK with it.

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I guess we may never know how much GAI knows about this set until we know FOR SURE that someone has had cards RETURNED and NOT GRADED by GAI due to being "modern reprints."

Has anyone had this happen??

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Don't know if this came frokm Verkman or Mike Wheat. Er...you make the call...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hal,

Let me first say, I do not prescribe to any Grading service.
I just have no long-term confidence in this service as applied
to BB cards. This feeling is mainly based on my observations
of the Coin grading history. And, I say this so that you real-
ize that I arguing this from a totally academic standpoint.

Now, the cards from my youth have perfectly beveled corners,
which leads me to conclude they were factory "rounded". NOT
hand cut.

But, more importantly, there is a cardboard stock difference
between the ROUNDIES and the SQUARES. The ROUNDIES are printed
on a slightly thicker stock. This was brought to my attention
by a long-time collector of these cards about a year ago at
the Philly Show in Ft. Washington. I compared my originals
with the about a dozen Reprints that I have, and sure enough
there is a slight, but nevertheless, difference.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

It would seem kinda strange that there are both 1947 original square cornered cards that just happen never to have been issued and also identical looking reprints. But I guess stranger things have happened. Has anyone ever had both supposed types of square cornered cards and done a side by side under magnification?

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Posted By: RobertS

This eBay lot I just noticed should help put this frequently recurring issue to rest. If this is genuine (and it looks likely that it is), this scrapbook indicates square corner cards were around in the 1940s.

Then again, this is all depends on the trustworthiness of the seller...thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44821&item=5210040745&rd=1

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Posted By: Anson

Rather odd. I submitted a few square corner specimens to GAI a few months back and had them returned as ungradeable. I'm sure they aren't reprints but they simply refused to grade them. With key cards like Musial(R) and Willaims, it would be nice to get to the bottom of things.

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Posted By: Julie

hand rounded...

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Posted By: RobertS

Also, this scrapbook on eBay contains square-cornered cards (such as Dom DiMaggio) which supposedly could only be found with rounded corners (as indicated by Lemke in the 2005 SCD big book).

So...more evidence the square-cornered cards were a 1940s issue and not printed later.

Of course, it never made any sense that somebody in the 1980s would reprint some of the cards but decide not to reprint Joe DiMaggio, choosing instead to mint up cards of the heavily sought after Primo Carnera!

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Posted By: Adam B

Were the non-sports Bond Bread cards distributed with or without rounded corners originally? I don't recall but there were a few up for auction recently without.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6539651387&category=28270>

Adam B

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st....Robert,

To refer to this seller's "1949 Album" as the final word on
this Bond Bread controversy is foolish. I contacted this ebay
seller and asked him what other cards, pictures, etc. were in
this album. Unfortunately he replied with only a one sentence
comment on the four Red Sox players depicted on this ebay lot.

Furthermore, Dom DiMaggio is part of the 24 - SQUARE cards
that are identified by Beckett. However, Sid Gordon is not;
and, he is pictured in this Album. I do have the known 24
SQUARE cards (which Beckett identifies as DP cards), so I was
really surprised to see Sid Gordon. This new card just adds to
the overall mystery regarding these cards.

2nd....Hal,

Once again I have to differ with you. I recently completed
the 24 - card SQUARE version of this issue. A couple of these
are even Graded. Now, I have very closely compared these 24
with my original 44 - ROUND cards (acquired in 1947). Here
are the differences:

1947 Original (ROUND)..........19xx "DP" (SQUARE)
-----------------------..............----------------------
3-7/16 x 2-4/16.........SIZE.........3-8/16 x 2-5/16

Thicker..........CARDBOARD STOCK...Thinner

Clear B/W Contrast....PIX QUALITY....Poor Contrast

Clear White................BACKS.......Always Toned (low quality paper)

Just note the difference in card size (this difference is very
consistent), it is understandable why some Grading Co. are
reluctant to grade any cards from this set. Compound this with
the questionability of when the SQUARE cards were really issued,
I personally feel that any Graded - 1947 Bond Bread card from
this set that is not a ROUNDED one, is not legitimate original
and should not be identified as a 1947 issue.

Sorry, to take such a strong stand on this; but, until some
"guru" has incontrovertable proof regarding the SQUARE cards;
where they were printed, and when they were really issued, I
will continue to argue this case.

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Posted By: RobertS

I never said this was the final proof on this issue. Indeed, my original post references the integrity of the seller as one thing to consider (I'm not suggesting this seller is bad, but that other "scrapbooks" we've seen have had fake cards inserted -- e.g. Babe Ruth Frojoys).

However, from the moment these square cards appeared on the scene in NY in the early 1980s, the selection of players has always seemed a bit odd -- why not "reprint" all the stars?

I agree with you on the thickness but not the toning -- I've seen dozens that were the same shade as the rounded corners.

Also, I didn't realize Beckett and SCD had different cards IDed as round cornered only -- that's strange.

I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of this. There is an easy solution, Ted...

Someone should just have the paper from one of the square cornered commons or boxers tested for age and be done with this once and for all. I'm sure nobody will balk at cutting up or ruining such a lowly card in the testing process!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

RobertS,

I was not trying to be critical of your post, Robert. I am
sorry if I came across that way. I guess I am just frustrated
with this entire subject by now. I certainly don't claim to be
an expert on these cards. But, I do have my originals from
58 years ago; and, I do have a pretty accurate recollection
of my sportscard collecting in the late '40s and early '50s.
I am 66 years old, and what I am finding out as I get older,
my recollections of my youth become clearer. I guess my mind
is starting to regress. That's fine with me, because those BB
memories of the late '40s thru to the early '60s are great to
reflect on.

Yes, the unexpected Sid Gordon in the Link you posted really
has me wondering. This one now makes it 25 "reprints" of the
original 48 cards. And, you make a great point that no one has
brought up since this controversy began, why is not the entire
set available in the SQUARE card version ? Something is very,
very "fishy" here. If the Festberg find of these SQUARES is just
uncirculated cards from 1947, then where are the rest of the
cards from this set ?

Another factor you are right about, these SQUARE cards were
virtually unknown before the early 1980s. Beckett or Krause
did not have them identified in their early Price Guides.

Anyhow, I think your final suggestion is great; but I'll take
it a step further.....how about "CARBON-DATING"....HA!....the
ROUNDIES & the SQUARES. Then we will have an A - B comparison
and I guarantee you we'll finally put this subject to rest.

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Posted By: Anson

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Posted By: scott ingold

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Posted By: scott ingold

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Posted By: Julie

round (?)--but was it always?






square--and of a much lower quality: