Buying Raw cards from Oldtime Dealers

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Posted By: Rand

THanks in advance for your opinions... i am thinking about buying some raw cards from an oldtime dealer with his version of grading. i do not want to mention the dealer, but wanted to hear from others what dealers grade their raw cards in-line with some of todays somewhat standards... anybody buy raw and submit from : Mike Wheat, Varner, Fritsch, Henderson, ect... to be a bit more specific i am looking at cards that are Ex , Ex/mt , NM regards

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Posted By: jeffdrum

I think that there are two different answers. If you are buying raw from a dealer that only sells raw then I would anticipate his/her grading standards to be more in style with the old days, in other words their EX may very well be VG+/VGEX by the grading companies standards. If you are buying raw from a dealer who also sells graded cards and if it it a high dollar card then I always assume that they have tried to have it graded and it never came back as high as they thought it should. Hence they crack it out, assign their grade and move on.

I would always anticipate on the safe side that the cards are going to grade out lower per the grading companies than what they are assigned raw.

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Posted By: plifter

I've bought from Henderson. His idea of EX and EX/MT don't equal the standards of the "professional" graders. I didn't submit any of the cards I bought but I can tell that some of the cards he sells as EX would probably be VG or VG/EX by a grading company. I think most dealers will over grade their cards when they sell them.

Sometimes I have issues with the professional graders. I think most of them nit-pick a card to death. The way I look at it is the reason cards in better condition sell for more is because they look better than a card in worse condition. The professional graders always manage to spot flaws that I don't notice. So, if I don't notice the flaw or the flaw doesn't really detract from the eye appeal of the card then what does it matter? That's just my opinion.

But if you are looking to buy raw from a dealer and get them slabbed at the same grade that the dealer advertises, you will probably be disappointed in most cases.

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Posted By: MW

plifter,

I don't agree with you about Bill Henderson. I used to set up with Bill for many years at shows and his grading is pretty accurate. In fact, on many occasions he would mark NM-MT and Mint condition cards as only Near Mint. Bill is very fair when it comes to selling ungraded ("raw") baseball cards.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I thought Fritsch overgraded his stuff. But he had lots, some of it not easily found other places....

Young slightly overgrades.

Henderson is a bit optimistic, but you shouldn't be buying mint cards from him in the first place. He sells cards you shouldn't be afraid to hold...

Wheat and Varner grade to suit me, but they both fall short of what the slab folks generally do. As above, I think the slab folks are a bit too nitpicking.


If you want to buy graded cards, then do that. Don't buy raw cards then whine. I usually whine about buying slabbed cards, and since I bust 'em out once I get 'em I should not whine, too.

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Posted By: plifter

MW, I'm just basing my opinion on the cards I've bought from him. In his defense I also will not say that he is over grading his cards. I'm just saying that he doesn't go by the higher standards that the grading companies use. I think he just grades his cards by "old school" standards. My personal belief is that the professional grading companies set the standards too high. They grade cards down for flaws that don't really detract from the card's eye appeal. Eye appeal is the sole reason that a card's condition matters.

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Posted By: Nick

....The way I look at it is the reason cards in better condition sell for more is because they look better than a card in worse condition...

Ya think so?

Nick

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Posted By: Tony Galovich

Last yr I purchased some pretty rare cards From Larry Fritsch & I sent all to SGC, All cards came back 2-4 points lower, But not surprised & I returned several that had horrible registration as well ........ Many old-time dealers realize grading standards have changed, BUT they continue to grade from 70's hobby standards...... If they changed their standards to modern grading criteria, their profits would fall dramatically & they still want to make 1970's style profits, not the profit margins of today..... But not all old-time dealers are adamant, some have changed with today's new grading standards.....You just have to do a few test purchases or tell them up front what you expect, you will find many will tell you to buy elsewhere

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Posted By: boxingcardman

BIG SCANS

I have no problem buying from a reputable dealer if I can see the card, front and back. I assume it will not grade out as represented so I go with the visual.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: rand

i have purchased from bill henderson about 4 years ago. i bought 10 goudeys he claimed were vg/ex. he also charged the same price as graded cards were selling at the time. i recieved them and all of them were Good not better. they all had issues and paper loss. i returned all of them and recieved a refund. i have not considered another purchase since then.

is it worth the aggravation for these guys to send cards in the mail, then to get them back and have to issue refunds because they wont re-evaluate their grades? its not like they are getting 50% book value, they charge as if they were already in sgc/psa holders...

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Posted By: leon

I bought from Larry Fritsch (RIP) many times over the years. I got some great deals doing so. After the first time or two I realized that about 50% or more were going to be returned but that was ok...the other 50% were a really good deal. Larry was always pleasant on the refunds and returns.....I bought from him without hesitation, knowing what to expect....best regards

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Posted By: andy becker

"Eye appeal is the sole reason that a card's condition matters."

that is the best statement i have heard in a long time!

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Posted By: Paul S

The scenario that Leon describes is pretty typical for many long-time reputable dealers, when you can't be in their "store". They send you some cards and half-expect some might be returned. Just make sure you are clear and comfortable with their return policy.

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Posted By: Mark C.

I just started slabbing some old cards and got some pretty eye-popping surprises. Cards that I bought from some pretty big names in the vintage card business back in the '90's as Near Mint came back as VG (ink dot), Authentic (trimmed), and Authentic (retouched) respectively. I've bought several cards from all three of these dealers and I'm confident that these cards weren't misrepresented, but I agree with the previous posters about the changes in grading standards.

I've never really been the biggest fan of 3rd party grading, but I can't deny that it increases confidence in what you're buying. I've even started having some of the cards that I'm selling graded so that I don't have to worry about inadvertently misrepresenting them to prospective buyers.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Ya think so?

Nick

Nick, I believe this has been beaten to death. We both know there are collectors that are simply buying the number on the slab.

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Posted By: Steve

The way I look at it is the reason cards in better condition sell for more is because they look better than a card in worse condition...


lol Matt that is classic!

Steve

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Posted By: Red

Collectors who don't know what they're looking at, or how to grade, can get suckered into paying too much for a card with great eye appeal. The card could have serious technical defects that would cause the "professional" grade of the card to be way below what you thought you were buying. That's why it's scary to hear anti-graders suggest that slabbing would be okay if all the graders would do is slab a card as authentic. The buyer and seller are then left up to their own ability to judge the card's grade and value , which takes you back to the dark ages of dealing where sellers see no defects and look for inexperienced buyers. A lot of oldtime buyers and sellers will grade based on eye appeal. Some buyers are okay with that, but others will shoot their cards off to the strictest grading companies without even looking at them and then get upset when the grades don't match.

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Posted By: david poses

i bought a card from kit young's website about a year ago. can't remember what the condition was described as, but it definitely didn't mention that the card was slightly torn. the pic was tiny so i couldn't see it, but their "money back guarantee" and reputation (or so i had heard) made me feel ok about buying the card. i sent an email immediately when i received the card and requested a refund. after not hearing back from them in a few days, i called, and got a major runaround. long story short, i still have the card and am not going to buy from them again.

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Posted By: rand

the oldtime dealers say they don't like the grading system when it comes to their cards... but they sure know how to charge for them when a psa or sgc card sells in a similar grade (in their grading opinions)

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Posted By: Matt R

lol Matt that is classic!

Steve

Steve, are you pickin' on me again, LOL! While I realize what I said seems like common sense, I think a lot of collectors have lost common sense. I know you ripped me for not spotting all of the "flaws" on my Gwynn card, but in all honesty those flaws just didn't matter to me one bit. It looked like a great card to me. That's all that matters. I'm at peace with my Ruth now as well. My old man was an engineer and frequently had to measure things to EXACT specifications. He got out his tool kit and measured my Ruth and it was spot on as far as the size. I'm positive in my mind that it was not trimmed. I'm going to leave it in it's GAI holder for what it's worth and just enjoy it. It looks good next to Hack Wilson and Gavvy Cravath.

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Posted By: david poses

it may be worth mentioning that i received a nice email from kit last night. obviously that doesn't solve the problem i had with the torn card i bought, but i wanted to let everyone know about the email...

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Posted By: leon

I went up to Kit (hi Kit) and introduced myself at the last National. We had a great conversation and I was glad I met him.....It's a great hobby and is a tough business to be in sometimes. I think he does a great job.....and no, he's not a banner advertiser > I will never forget the very first time Kit posted on Net54. No sooner did he get his first foot in the door did someone lambaste him for a deal from about 20 yrs ago. That really sucked....

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Posted By: dan mckee

Rand, I am old time and hate the grading system with my cards and with anyones cards. Your statement was unfair. I hate the grading system as I do not need some chump to tell me the condition of my cards or what they are. Remember, the hobby worked just fine years ago without it and true collectors do not care if there is a flaw that you can only see with a telescope! Who Cares!

On another note I agree that us oldtimers grades are a tier down from the 3rd party services. Since the 3rd party services are using Hubble telescopes, well naturally they will see imperfections that we won't. Basic physics.

I hate the current hobby compared to the old hobby, the main difference is the money. A true kiss of death to anything decent.

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Posted By: Matt R

Dan, you and I think a lot alike. When I returned to collecting after a decade hiatus, I thought these new graded cards were awesome. After numerous grading submissions and reading other people's horror stories, I just don't think the grading companies can deliver the service that they sell.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Actually Matt, and this kills me to say it, but I do think the grading is needed because of the amount of fraud on the internet. But I just can't stand it as I do not think they take the right approach. I am with you Matt, it is an entire new ball game now.

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Posted By: Steve

That really sucked...

Yeah it did, especially for all those kids that bought packs hoping to get a Mattingly,

only to get his repacked crap.

Steve