1936 Goudey R322 front/back combos

[DaveW]

Does anybody have a checklist of all the front/back combos that are possible for the R322 Goudey Black and White cards? Does anybody even have a list of all the possible backs? If I wanted to put together a master set of all combos, how many cards would there be? I'd be willing to try to put this list together if nobody has done it before, but I'd hate to do all that work and find that it already exists. Thanks in advance,
- Dave

[DaveW]

OK, I see that there is not much interest in this set but I will discuss what I've learned so far in the off-chance that somebody in the future will be interested. I've looked through all the cards that I could find on the internet and I've determined that there are 25 different backs. Each back has 2 "plays" on it - each one is the result of a single pitch (i.e. ball, strike, double, foul, etc). I assume that the game was played by flipping a card over and using the result to keep score of your ballgame (just like keeping the scorebook for a game today). Since each card is a single pitch, you would need hundreds of cards or have to reshuffle often to finish a 9 inning game. I also assume that this was pretty boring and the game wasn't too popular. I also don't see any evidence (like a bend in the middle of the cards) to suggest that the cards were shuffled very much.
So, how many front/back combos are there? If each card came with each of the possible backs, there would be 625 combos. I doubt that there were that many. So far, the most I have seen is 7 fronts for any one back and 7 backs for any one front. That would make 175 possible combos. I don't really have enough data yet to say that that is the correct number. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the real number is 8. I'll post again later when I have more data.
- Dave

[steve B]

I seem to recall seeing 108 front back combos somewhere, probably the big book. But the 2010 edition only says numerous.

Steve B

[DaveW]

I've already found about 125 different combos and I just started Monday. I'm not sure what the final tally will be, but I would have thought that somebody would have figured it out by now.

[DaveW]

While working on the front/back combos for the 1936 R322 set, I made an interesting discovery. The "plays" on the backs of the cards are identical to the plays on the backs of the 1935 R325 set (the Knot Hole League Game cards). Here is an example for card #2 in both sets:

In order, these are R325 front; R325 back; R322 back

As you can see, the text and the font is identical for both sets - they must have reused the plates.
What's also interesting is that while the front of the Knot Hole Game cards says that there are 100 cards, only 24 cards were ever issued (Goudey printed sheets of 24 cards, so this makes sense). But the 1936 set has 25 card fronts and 25 different card backs - which include all 24 of the known Knot Hole Game backs plus one new one. Why did they make 1 extra back and 1 extra front?

Note: Most publications say the R325 Knot Hole Game cards are from 1937, but that doesn't really make sense. There is a 1935 copyright on the card and the 2 teams mentioned on the front played in the 1934 World Series (Cards and Tigers).

[DaveW]

Well I've scoured every Ebay auction as well as everywhere I could think of on the web and I've found 145 different front/back combos so far. I am beginning to think that there will be 168 combos, so I'd like to ask for some help. If you collect this set, could you look through your cards and send me a list of which fronts you have with which backs? If the back has Ball/Out, Foul/Ball or Strike/Ball then please give me the first 2 words of one of the plays so I can tell which back it is. Thanks in advance! I really appreciate it. I'll be happy to share any of my data or results with anybody that is interested.
- Dave

p.s. Has anybody seen an uncut sheet of this set (or have a scan)? That would also help.

[steve B]

Only 3

Berger hit by pitch/out (pop foul)
Coscarart ball/out (1st baseman)
Coscarart out (long fly to deep right)/strike

Steve B

[DaveW]

Thanks Steve and Bill for the info. I'm up to 147 front/back combos now.
Anybody else want to contribute to the advancement of knowledge?

[brianp-beme]

Dave,

I will let you know what I have Saturday.

Brian

[DaveW]

Thanks Brian - you had 6 new front/back combos for me! I'm now up to 152 different combos. Anybody else have any to contribute? Surely somebody must collect this set ......Yes, but don't call me Shirley!

[familytoad]

Ok, I admit, I have this full set...maybe still a dupe or two.
I am pretty sure I even know which box it is in.
I should be able to compile my f/b combos for you this week

What I always thought strange was the player selection itself..lots of guys you wouldn't expect to be included in such a small set.

Anyway...I'll hit the closet as soon as I can!

[DaveW]

Brian - Thanks! Yes, the player selection is a bit of a mystery. I see that they got 1 or 2 guys from each of the teams and that most of them had been on an All Star team in the previous 3 years. But there are 4 or 5 guys that are really out of place. Is Frenchy Bordagaray (in only his 3rd year) really the best guy they could get from the Dodgers?

[Robextend]

From my collection:

Bonura bunt(if man on 3rd)/stolen base
Brubaker foul(over the press boxes)/ball
Camilli ball(right over)/out
Castleman out!!(high infield fly)/error!!!
Cochrane strike(a fast in-shoot)/ball
Crosetti ball(too close)/out
Derringer foul tip(over the catcher's)/strike!
Ferrell ball(an out-drop)/out
Greenberg ball(an out-drop)/out
Harris strike(batter stepped back)/wild pitch
Higgins ball(an out-drop)/out
Hildebrand !!home run!!(a terrific drive)/ball
Klein out(a long fly)/strike
Waner strike(a wide out-curve)/ball

[DaveW]

Thanks Rob! You had one new combo for me. I must be getting close since the new ones are getting harder to find.

[Robextend]

You are welcome Dave.

Thanks for taking the lead on this...appreciate it.

[familytoad]

Dave, here are my additions...not many match Rob's list. Looks like you've got a big job trying to collect all of these!
I tried to capture the play shown first when the player's name is right-side up, although I don't know if that has shown to matter.
Also, I failed to capture punctuation, but some (as you know) have multiple exclamation marks...who knows if that matters for variations or not.

I can scan any of these if you'd like...while I have them out.

Go get'em!!

Berger Ball/out
Berger out/strike
Bonura ball/out
Bordagaray foul tip/strike
Brubaker ball/out
Camilli bunt scratch hit/stolen base
Castleman out/error
Cochrane strike/ball
Coscarart foul/force out
Crosetti out/double play
Derringer out/single
Dykes three bagger/out
Ferrell out/error
Gomez three bagger/out
Greenberg ball/out
Harris bunt scratch hit/stolen base
Hemsley strike/ball
Higgins strike/wild pitch
Hildebrand out/error
Hildebrand ball/out
Klein ball/out
Martin hit by pitch/out
Newsom home run/ball
Waner foul/force out
Werber out/double play
Vosmik strike/out

[DaveW]

Brian - Thanks so much for digging out your cards. You had 2 that I hadn't seen and several that I need more info on. Of the 25 different backs, there are 4 that have Ball/Out (and 1 with Out/Ball), 3 that have Strike/Ball and 2 that have Foul/Ball. There is also 1 that says Double/Foul and 1 that says Foul/Double!! that could be confused. For your cards that have these backs, could you please tell me the first 2 words of either play so that I can identify which card it is? Also, does your Vosmik card say Out/Strike or Strike/Out? So far I have 155 different back/front combos. Thanks again!
- Dave

[DaveW]

Anybody else have any of these? Please.
Brian - can you send me the info on your cards? You have at least 8 that I would love to know more about what the back says.
Thanks all.

[familytoad]

Dave, before I put these away, I looked through them again...
so here is the full back information you seek! (I have no foul/double)
These plays are all listed with the top play listed first.

• Berger ball (too close...)/Out ( a pop fly...)
• Berger out (a long fly...)/strike (a slow ball...)
• Bonura ball (too close...)/out (a pop fly...)
• Bordagaray foul tip/strike!
• Brubaker ball (right over..)/out (a long high fly)
• Camilli bunt scratch hit!!/stolen base!
• Castleman out!! (high infield fly) /error!!! (line smash...)
• Cochrane strike (a fast in-shoot...)/ball(too low...)
• Coscarart foul(high over...)/force out(man on base...)
• Crosetti out (attempted bunt...)/double play(a line drive...)
• Derringer out (a beautiful sacrifice...)/single (a long drive...)
• Dykes three bagger/out( line drive...)
• Ferrell out!! (high infield fly..)/error!!! (Line smash to 3rd...)
• Gomez three bagger(what a smash...)/out (a line drive...)
• Greenberg ball/out (this one in storage)
• Harris bunt scratch hit/stolen base
• Hemsley strike (a fastin-shoot...)/ball (too low...)
• Higgins strike(batter stepped back...)/wild pitch
• Hildebrand out!!(high infield fly...)/error(line smash...)
• Hildebrand ball (an out-drop...)/out (a sharp grounder...)
• Klein ball (an out-drop...)/out (a sharp grounder...)
• Martin hit by pitch(takes his base...)/out (pop foiul...)
• Newsom !!Home run!! (a terrific drive) /ball (outside...)
• Waner foul (high over...)/force out
• Werber out (attempted bunt...)/double play (a line drive...)
• Vosmik strike (right over...)/ball (high-inside...)

[Big Ben]

I only have 2 '36 Goudeys

Lefty Gomez. Foul-liner into home team'dugout/Ball-batter fell down....

Paul Waner- Ball- an out-drop- just missed the outside corner of the plate/Out-A sharp grounder to short...

Best of luck to you with putting everything together.

[DaveW]

Thanks Brian and Ben! I'll check your cards when I get back from my holiday travels.

[DaveW]

With all the new members joining recently, I thought I'd rescue this thread from the depths. Surely some of the new guys must have some of these cards! I'm up to 161 front/back combos now. Over 1100 views and only 7 guys have info to share! This must be a very unpopular set.

[ecRich]

Hi Dave,
Can you list the back f/b combos you have found? Kind of hard to follow which ones have been accounted for so far. Are you just looking for dark print (strike, ball,double,foul, etc.) or also the descriptions found below the listed term? Good work on this.
Rich

[DaveW]

Rich,
I would be kind of hard to list all 161 of the front/back combos. Once I've found them all, I will write up a complete description of the set. Right now I'm just hoping that people will share with me what cards they have. Previous posts describe what plays are not unique and so need at least the first two words so I can tell which card it is. Thanks for any info you can provide.

[Koufax32fan]

Dave,

I am just starting this set - so much for focusing on what I had already started. I won an auction from Heritage with 6 cards:

Bonura - Foul (over the press)/Ball (too high)
Cochrane - Home Run/Ball (outside - in fact very wide)
Gomez - Three Bagger (What a smash)/Out (a line drive to center)
Higgins - Strike (a fast in-shoot)/Ball (TOO Low)
Greenberg - Hit by pitched ball (takes his base. trainer)/Out (Pop foul to catcher)
Dykes - Out (High infield fly)/Error (line smash to 3rd)

I would love to see your list when you are complete.

Mike

[gman]

There is a Kiki Cuyler --> Ball/Out currently up for auction on e-bay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Goudey-...item2ecd165340

[DaveW]

Mike - Thanks for digging up this old thread. It's good to see that there is some interest in this set. When I get home from vacation on Monday, I'll fix the picture links above and write up what I've learned after looking at hundreds and hundreds of these cards. Hint -there are 175 total front/back combos, but it's not as straight-forward as you would think.
- Dave

P.s. Is it sort of pitiful that I still check this site when I'm on vacation?

[Koufax32fan]

Dave,

Thanks - look forward to seeing what you have. Not sure if I will go for the master set right away, but I can see trying to get all of the backs for my favorite player in the set to start (of course Greenberg just happens to also be the most expensive card in the set).

As for checking Net54 on vacation: it all depends on what your vacation is. If you were visiting your inlaws as I was, then no problem. If you are on a cruise, or in Paris with your wife, then stay off this site. Of course, it is New Year's Eve and I am checking it (as my wife just happens to be on another continent with one of my kids, so it this or watching a movie with a bunch of 10 year olds).

Mike

[DaveW]

So, here is what I've found after looking at every one of these I could find for the last year or so:

Front - Printed with Back Number
----------------------------------
Berger - 2,8,9,14,15,17,22
Bonura - 2,4,6,7,9,17,25
Bordagaray - 7,9,10,14,15,20,25
Brubaker - 6,8,9,10,14,19,24
Camilli - 2,5,6,7,13,15,20
Castleman - 13,17,18,19,20,25
Cochrane - 2,4,17,21,22,24,25
Coscarart - 2,3,4,9,12,13,22
Crosetti - 4,9,16,17,19,20,22
Cuyler - 1,3,8,11,12,13,21
Derringer - 4,7,11,12,13,15,25
Dykes - 12,14,16,17,18,19,24
Ferrell - 10,11,16,17,18,20,23
Gomez - 1,3,5,6,7,8,16,25
Greenberg - 5,8,9,10,15,18,23
Harris - 1,2,5,7,10,11,18
Hemsley - 3,4,6,11,12,14,24
Higgins - 3,4,5,10,11,13,23
Hildebrand - 1,5,11,18,21,22,23
Klein - 1,7,13,20,22,23,24,25
Martin - 1,8,10,14,15,16,21
Newsom - 1,3,16,21,23,24
Vosmik - 2,5,6,12,14,19,25
Waner - 6,12,19,21,22,23,24
Werber - 3,8,16,18,19,20,21

So there are 175 different front/back combos. Every player has 7 different backs except Castleman and Newsom only have 6 and Gomez and Klein have 8.
Every back is used with 7 different players except back #15 is used with 6 players and back #25 is used with 8 players.
If you would like a nice spreadsheet showing all this info, just PM me and I'll email it to you.

Back #
1 Double (To left center) / Foul
2 Steals Home!! / Strike
3 Ball (Too low.) / Out (1st baseman spears)
4 Strike (A fast in-shoot) / Ball (TOO low.)
5 Strike / Wild Pitch
6 Ball (Right over) / Out (A long high fly)
7 Bunt - Scratch Hit!! / Stolen Base!
8 Hit By Pitched Ball / Out
9 Foul (Over the press boxes.) / Ball (Too high and wide.)
10 Foul / Double!!
11 Out (A short fly) / Ball (Almost a wild pitch.)
12 Foul / Force Out
13 Out / Single
14 Strike (Right over) / Ball (High - inside.)
15 Foul Tip / Strike!
16 Three Bagger / Out
17 Ball (Too close.) / Out (A pop fly)
18 Out!! / Error!!!
19 Strike (Caught napping) / Foul (High up)
20 Out / Double Play
21 !!Home Run!! / Ball
22 Out (A long fly) / Strike (A slow ball)
23 Ball (An out-drop) / Out (A sharp grounder)
24 Strike (A wide out-curve) / Ball (Outside - too low.)
25 Foul (Liner into home) / Ball (Batter fell down)

[Spike]

Update from 2016 National: I located Castleman with back #15 (the only one seen 6 times), raising that back to 7 players and total front/back combos to 176. Holding out hope that Newsom will also be found with a 7th back, though not sure which one that'd be.

Since 1936 Goudey copies the game backs from their 24-card Knot Hole League set, but used 25 different players and backs, I can see arguments for either 4x6 or 5x5 sheet arrangement. If they used 4x6 sheets, 176 combos is 7 24-card sheets plus eight "extra" cards, the same number of combos known for 1936's "new" back, #25. If Newsom is never discovered, it's possible that explains the printing arrangement.

[Spike]

Based on the good work by DaveW and contributors to this thread several years ago, I created a spreadsheet as the reference for finishing a set of all front/back combinations. The seventh and final R322 Hank Greenberg arrived from eBay last week, putting me at 100% of variations found by Net54 contributors.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

While I feel good about this set being complete, it'd be great to add more confidence. Please check it against your R322s when time allows and add any thoughts or updates.