Sam Thompson value

[joed25]

Does anyone have any idea what this painting is worth (approximately). Someone offered it to me for sale. This is what the seller told me about it:
Hall of Famer Sam Thompson oil painting wearing the Dauvray Cup Metal he was awarded in 1887. There were 14 of these gold badges awarded to his teammates. He was with the Detroit Wolverines when they won the 1887 World Series.
Sorry for the sideways photo. I don’t know why it uploads that way. Thank you.

[joed25]

Thanks Leon

[swarmee]

Do you know the artist's name?

[Joe_G.]

Very interesting ! Limited knowledge on value. Would greatly help if you can figure out if it is contemporary, artist, oil, etc.

Personally, I'm interested in the accuracy of hair color and eye color . . . more value to some if it is a contemporary piece.

Graig Kriendler did a gorgeous Sam Thompson with a lot of research and some guess work at play.

I'm anxious to get opinion from Keith Thompson on this portrait . . . i.e. whether he feels it is based on a photo or if he believes Sam sat for this one.

[joed25]

According to the seller it was done in the 1800’s. I don’t know the artist’s name. Thank you

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by joed25

According to the seller it was done in the 1800’s. I don’t know the artist’s name. Thank you

Would really want this in my collection. If this was done in the 1800’s would be amazing. Have to have more provenance.

[EddieP]

There is chipping paint and it looks like a smoker use to owned it. There appears to be white paint on the frame. Whatever the value , restoration/ cleaning/ framing costs should be negotiated into the price. Unless the subject is a person of historical significance, it is the Artist, Provenance , and date ( in that order) that is the key to the value of the portrait .If the seller can not provide any of this then I would tread very carefully. There are a lot of fakes/ frauds/ forgeries that are sold by felons in the art market.

There is not much information provided to give a good estimate of the value. Right now all we have is a supposed picture of Sam Thompson painted no earlier than 1887.

Do you have a picture of the back? Sometimes there are clues that can lead to the artist, date and provenance of the painting ( e.g. Gallery’s name). Is this painting being sold by a Gallery, private party, thrift shop, pawn shop etc?

[Joe_G.]

How large is the painting?

Here is Graig Kreindler's Sam Thompson. This painting is based off a cabinet photo from spring of 1886.

The Dauvray medals were gifted to the players after the 1887 "World Championship" was complete (Gorham engraved winning team and player names on the medals). I've researched this detail in past but away from my notes at present. I recall that the NL umpire Honest John Gaffney received his Dauvray medal in spring of 1888.

[drcy]

If it's really from the 1800s, I think it would have good value. Not many 19th-century paintings like that around. Rare piece.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by EddieP

There is chipping paint and it looks like a smoker use to owned it. There appears to be white paint on the frame. Whatever the value , restoration/ cleaning/ framing costs should be negotiated into the price. Unless the subject is a person of historical significance, it is the Artist, Provenance , and date ( in that order) that is the key to the value of the portrait .

That is not white paint. The frame is plaster over wood covered with gold paint. Very common style of frame Late 1800's to early 1900's. My wife has a number of similar frames on paintings in storage. These can be restored using the opposite side of the frame and creating a mirror mold to shape the plaster for the missing plaster such as in the lower frame face at the bevel. The sides are easier as it is a continuous simple rounded edge.

I don't see how you can assume that this was owned by a smoker. Paintings can darken without the presence of cigar/pipe or cigarette smoke. There is damage to the canvas in the upper left quadrant that looks like water damage from the back.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Michael B

That is not white paint. The frame is plaster over wood covered with gold paint. Very common style of frame Late 1800's to early 1900's. My wife has a number of similar frames on paintings in storage. These can be restored using the opposite side of the frame and creating a mirror mold to shape the plaster for the missing plaster such as in the lower frame face at the bevel. The sides are easier as it is a continuous simple rounded edge.

I don't see how you can assume that this was owned by a smoker. Paintings can darken without the presence of cigar/pipe or cigarette smoke. There is damage to the canvas in the upper left quadrant that looks like water damage from the back.

Can’t really tell if it’s wood without lifting it or examining in person. Regardless if it’s smoke, soot etc , we are in agreement that painting not in the best of shape and it will affect the cost. Right?

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by EddieP

Can’t really tell if it’s wood without lifting it or examining in person. Regardless if it’s smoke, soot etc , we are in agreement that painting not in the best of shape and it will affect the cost. Right?

Agreed, there are a few spots where it appears there is paint missing. Yes it is wood under the plaster. As mentioned, my wife owns more than a few framed paintings with this style of frame. I have hung, packed and moved them multiple times so I am familiar with these.

[joed25]

The seller is asking $75,000. Does that seem like a crazy price for this? I’m sorry I don’t have more details about the history.

[Webster]

Is there any information/writing/labeling/trademarks on the back?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by joed25

The seller is asking $75,000. Does that seem like a crazy price for this? I’m sorry I don’t have more details about the history.

Without provenance that seems like a very high ask.

[mrreality68]

It is an amazing piece.
The price may or may not be alot.
For that potential price you need alot more information as others mentioned especially the Providence.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by joed25

The seller is asking $75,000. Does that seem like a crazy price for this? I’m sorry I don’t have more details about the history.

This is just my opinion:

Unknown artist, unknown provenance, and alot of work needed to restore it . $75,000 is way too much.
For all you know, he could have bought it at a yard sale, had someone paint the Dauvray Cup Medal on it and then claim it’s a portrait of some obscure Hall of Famer. Also even if you know the artist and the provenance at that price , it would behoove you to find someone who could examine the painting in person and give you an appraisal.

There’s a museum in Detroit with a sizeable baseball card collection. You may want to contact them and ask if they know anything about this painting and/or know anyone who can appraise this for you.

If you think you can do this by yourself, Here’s some advice (and you can take it worth a grain of salt): Think of all the bad eggs in our hobby. Multiply that number by 2000 and it’ll still underestimate the amount of fraudsters in the art world.

[FrankWakefield]

+1 what Eddie said.

Do you have a closeup photo of the pin in his shirt directly under his tie? I ask to see about the detail in which the pin is painted. After looking at the images, it occurred to me that the medal pinned to the jacket is subliminally prominent, as is the detail on it. If someone was going to forge such a painting, then putting something in the painting tying it to that Detroit team would key to getting a baseball collector interested. Without similar detail on the pin, then I'd infer that the 'extra detail' on the medal was intentional, a collector would be wanting to see that.

It reminds me of paintings found in courthouses depicting judges and such. after his playing days Thompson was a US Marshal, and he served as a bailiff in the federal courts there in Detroit. The painting could have been done in the early 1900s just as easily as thinking it was from 1887 or 1888. Are there similar paintings somewhere of other players from that team? It could have been painted later from a photo...

Asking about that portrait here was a good first step, but I think you need several more steps and obtain solid provenance before buying that. And it partly depends on how dear $75k is to you, how fanatical you are about Detroit baseball, and how driven you are in collecting stuff of 19th century Hall of Fame players. I wish you well with your research.

[joed25]

Here is a photo of the back. I really appreciate everyone who took time to respond to my questions. You guys are the greatest!

[Keith H. Thompson]

This portrait of Sam Thompson has no family history to my knowledge and research, but it looks authentic to me, and I put the date anytime after 1888 when the Dauvray Cup Medals were distributed. As an aside, I will mention that my family donated Sam's actual Dauvray Cup Medal to the HOF in 1974. As a boy, I remember seeing in it in its original blue silken case on my mother's sewing machine. It was kept in Sam's gold lined, solid silver trophy awarded to him by the Philadelphia fans for winning a contest for "the most valuable" player. This trophy was on prominent display at the HOF the last time I was there, and the medal has been seen on traveling exhibition.

I believe the case may be made that the portrait under consideration in this thread was inspired by and almost certainly commissioned by Aunt Ida, either while they were "engaged" or shortly after their marriage in 1888. Ida Mareska came from a socially prominent family in Detroit. Sam came from a rural upbringing, and (in my opinion) the idea of sitting for a portrait in formal attire in his Dauvray Cup Medal would not have been original with him.

My great interest in this portrait is that it may be the only original interpretation by any contemporary of Sam's eye and hair color. I personally feel that it is not a very good likeness. My first thought was -- "that's Uncle Cy!"

[joed25]

Thank you Keith! Amazing info.

[joed25]

I am going to post it on eBay for him with a high price and a best offer option and see if there is any interest.

[FrankWakefield]

If you list it on eBay, post a link here, please, so we can follow it.

What does it cost to list something for 75k, if it doesn't sell???


I still think nailing down provenance first would really help an eBay sell. Rushing to sell it before that is a bit of a flag, maybe.

[Keith H. Thompson]

that we have yet to learn of any provenance, and we should, to help in establishing the origin of this "portrait." Sam Thompson is a dead on target for forgers, and I could cite several examples where genuine, period items have been elaborately embellished with purported inscriptions and successfully sold in four figures at auction. To be more blunt, who is to say that this is a portrait of Sam Thompson? I still feel that the pictorial evidence that I see points to a Mareska family origin, but so what ...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

that we have yet to learn of any provenance, and we should, to help in establishing the origin of this "portrait." Sam Thompson is a dead on target for forgers, and I could cite several examples where genuine, period items have been elaborately embellished with purported inscriptions and successfully sold in four figures at auction. To be more blunt, who is to say that this is a portrait of Sam Thompson? I still feel that the pictorial evidence that I see points to a Mareska family origin, but so what ...

I don't know either but the ears, usually a telltale sign, don't look to be the same.
.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know either but the ears, usually a telltale sign, don't look to be the same.

I'd agree if this were a photo however since it is a painting, perhaps based on Sam sitting for the portrait, the accuracy of such details may be lacking or even purposely inaccurate for sake of completing quickly or even desire to change ears, nose, etc. In low confidence I do believe it to be a portrait of Sam with a decent but far from perfect likeness. I totally agree with Frank & Keith. For me, the main question is whether this is an authentic painting dating to late 19th century.

This painting will realize far more if the seller/consignor/auction house seeks professional opinion on date. Maybe you cannot piece together provenance but knowing the painting dates to late nineteenth to early twentieth century and hasn't been touched up (confirm the Dauvray Cup pendant isn't a late add) would help those with interest to offer or bid higher sums of money in confidence. It would certainly impact any offer I would make.

[RCMcKenzie]

The Kreindler piece is really nice. Along the lines of what Eddie is saying, you should gather more information from the seller. Where did he find it?

It helps a great deal to have a reputable venue vouch for the piece. If it were in Dumouchelles or HA, they could say "19th Century portrait, quite possibly so-and-so." etc Selling with a major art dealer creates provenance. Good luck with it.

[joed25]

The seller doesn’t know the artist or the provenance. He bought it many years ago at Brimfield. He’s a local guy I know and I don’t think he is trying to scam anyone. Thanks for all the help.

[RCMcKenzie]

Just my thoughts on the artwork, I don't think it's a forgery or a fake. It's pretty nice, but the value is as a sports collectible. I have no idea what it may sell for in a sports auction.

Maybe not an exact comp and non-sports, but here is a portrait of John Rennie the Younger, who took his Dad's plans and built the London Bridge.

www.liveauctioneers.com/item/131508185

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by joed25

The seller doesn’t know the artist or the provenance. He bought it many years ago at Brimfield. He’s a local guy I know and I don’t think he is trying to scam anyone. Thanks for all the help.

In its current condition I would value it at $250. Nice piece if it gets cleaned up.

[JustinD]

I would think the BO idea is the best idea possible for any sale. As an avid art and card collector, I certainly do not mean this insultingly to the seller but as an honest opinion. The 75k is most certainly a pipe dream with zero provenance. I see no artist signature on the front or rear, it also looks like it has been removed from the frame so assume no signature was found on the edge of the canvas. Without locating the artist info to help with dating and having it examined professionally to see if the medal was added it’s a leap of faith.

With no info and the current condition I would leap on anything that comes close to a tenth of that but fear it will even join the eBay museum at that price point. With no provenance it becomes a very limited and tiny market, but I hope it finds a great home.

[Keith H. Thompson]

loses a lot of credibility to learn that "the seller picked it up at Brimfield." That would not be impossible or even improbable, but to identify the subject as Sam Thompson is a reach. I know for certain that the painting was not among the many items that my father received from Aunt Ida's caretaker upon her death. I further believe that if the painting had anything to do with Sam and Ida, it would have been kept in the family as so many other relics were.

I have, or have access to, many contemporary portrait cabinet cards of Sam, including N173s, that reveal his attire and facial features of the moment. To me, there is nothing about the painting's subject that uniquely identifies him as Sam Thompson.

The pictorial evidence of the painting that we see, and even the provenance itself, point to a genuine 19th century artifact, but I'm going to float the idea that the subject is another player from the Detroit 1887 team?

[WillowGrove]

You might be onto something Keith. Kinda looks like manager Watkins.

[RCMcKenzie]

I think you guys got it right. Now that you mention it, the painting looks like it was made while looking at an n172 Watkins.

[EddieP]

It does look more like Watkins. But according to joed25 only 14 medals were given and Watkins did not appear to be popular among the players and the club president.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-watkins/

[insidethewrapper]

They all look alike to me, except Deacon White.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

They all look alike to me, except Deacon White.

Racis...

Kidding, just having a bit of fun.

[insidethewrapper]

I'm terrible with photo face recognition.

[Keith H. Thompson]

This is not an appropriate place to be advancing unproven theories about the subject, in deference to the seller's mission, but I can't help but comment that Manager Watkins fills my bill. First, he would be the man who owned formal dress for such an occasion. Or at least think it appropriate to be so attired for such an occasion and to seize the opportunity to honor himself. Second, so far as I know, Helen Dauvray herself commissioned the medals, and I don't think the players had much say as to the distribution. Each medal is engraved on the obverse with the players name and position, but it is surely unknown whether or not Manager Watkins received one.

[RCMcKenzie]

Joseph, I hope you pass this info on to the seller. You got the top of the tops background info on this piece. I would be a buyer on the Watkins painting at around $1200, but there are serious Detroit collectors who would bid on the Watkins painting. I would ask HA, or try Sterling or LOTG. Take a best offer, I can't see 75K on eBay good luck.

[RCMcKenzie]

Forgot to mention, Brockelman Auctions, I'd start it at $1 and no reserve.

[insidethewrapper]

Not sure if the manager Watkins got a medal, I can't find it in my notes. Joe what do you think, did he receive a medal ? If only 14 medals issued is correct, then I believe only the players received them.

[Keith H. Thompson]

probably did not receive a medal personally. John Thorn and others have cited evidence that exactly 14 medals were created for each of the fourteen man roster, but also that one was created for the "winning" umpire. Strange, if true. But, I see no reason to believe otherwise that Manager Watkins would not find the opportunity so inviting, so to speak, that he would "borrow" a pin for the occasion.

As a group, we NET54ers have an inconsistent and prejudiced record at identifying 19th century players from photographs based on facial characteristics, depending upon "who" we want it to be.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

As a group, we NET54ers have an inconsistent and prejudiced record at identifying 19th century players from photographs based on facial characteristics, depending upon "who" we want it to be.

[jcmtiger]

I see it’s on eBay for sale $199,999.00 or best offer.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

I see it’s on eBay for sale $199,999.00 or best offer.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

I see it’s on eBay for sale $199,999.00 or best offer.

You can buy an original Picasso lithograph from Costco for less than that.

[Leon]

I wonder if they would accept about 300 dollars for it?
After cleaning, and all, that sounds about in the ballpark.
.

[Joe_G.]

Some facts for those still following this saga . . .

Thorn has it mostly right regarding the pin/pendant/medal/badge (period papers refer to them as medals or badges). The initial plan was for only the "winning" umpire to receive a medal but that changed. There was Honest John Gaffney for NL and Honest John Kelly for AA. The two-umpire system worked great and would be used with increased frequency in later years. With Detroit winning the World Championship, Gaffney was by extension the "winning" umpire however both would receive a medal.

The team "members" received their badges on October 21st of 1887. The badges featured a batter as a central figure while in April of 1888 the umpires, Gaffney and Kelly, would receive badges of a slightly different design. A great description of the umpire badges can be found below (see the Kelly writeup).

The players, as mentioned, received their badges on October 21st (after game 11, 2nd game of double header) while still on the East coast which was convenient for Helen Dauvray. The final games would head back to the mid-west (Detroit, Chicago, & St. Louis) to finish out the 15-game series.

Lady Baldwin Medal (not mine)

There were exactly 14 Detroit players to collect stats during the World Championship as follows:

Lady Baldwin
Charlie Bennett
Dan Brouthers
Pete Conway
Fred Dunlap
Charlie Ganzel
Pretzels Getzien
Ned Hanlon
Hardy Richardson
Jack Rowe
Sy Sutcliffe (final 3 games only)
Sam Thompson
Larry Twitchell
Deacon White

However, I don't believe Sy Sutcliffe would have been awarded a medal as he joined the team later, collecting his first Detroit AB in game 13. That 14th badge could have been awarded to manager Bill Watkins. Chris Von der Ahe of St. Louis and Bill Watkins of Detroit were both very well known. I wouldn't be surprised if Helen Dauvray opted to gift medals to the winning manager as well. I note that some accounts refer to the "members" of the winning team vs the "players" as the medal recipients. I suspect a deeper dive might shed further light on this possibility.

I personally like this painting but would need to be assured that if I find it to be a modern creation or the medal a modern addition that a full refund is waiting. Deciding which team member the painting represents is far from settled and open for debate. Unfortunately, none of the listed possibilities in this thread are a strong match. Sam Thompson, Bill Watkins, and a few others are in play. If authentic, I also think it possible that a family member or friend of a player could have worn this pin.

[Casey2296]

Impressive research Joe, super informative, thank you.

The unfortunate aspect of this thread is that OPs best buyers of that piece were right here trying to help him with suggestions, not only that, he probably would have realized his best price with the help of this community. Instead, the piece is relegated to EBay wasteland with an ask of a gazillion dollars obo. Might as well put it with that Billy the Kid photo with the 2mil ask.