Golden Era Hall of Fame Ballot announced

[bigtrain]

The ballot for the Hall of Fame "Golden Era" Committee has been announced today. It consists of Ken Boyer, Tony Oliva, Luis Tiant, Billy Pierce, Gil Hodges, Bob Howsam, Dick Allen, Maury Wills, Minnie Minoso and Jim Kaat. I would guess that Hodges, Boyer and Oliva have the best shot as there have been groups pushing their candidacies for years. I really like Minnie Minoso. Any thoughts?

[packs]

My votes would go to Hodges and Kaat.

[btcarfagno]

Dick Allen is the best offensive player not in the Hall outside of Rose and Jackson. He was an adventure in the field but he was dominant offensively. Hodges, Boyer etc aren't close with the bat.

I would like to see all three get in and maybe Kaat as well.

Tom C

[Beatles Guy]

Dick Allen, Hodges, and Boyer.

[peterb69]

The Hall of Fame is already to watered down as it is. I vote to remove some players. None of these get in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by peterb69

The Hall of Fame is already to watered down as it is. I vote to remove some players. None of these get in.

Indeed.

[MacDice]

I think this is the year Hodges gets in

[Peter_Spaeth]

Garvey's knocking at the door
Foster's ringing the bell
Johnson's knocking at the door
Allen's ringing the bell
Do me a favor
Open the Hall
Let em in

Luis Tiant
Tommy John
Colavito
Mattingly Don
T Oliva
Jimmy Wynn
Open the Hall
Let em in, in, in
__________________

[brewing]

Allen is the only one worthy to me.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by brewing

Allen is the only one worthy to me.

I have to agree. I like some of the other players. We profiled a couple of them on the watercooler sports board. But Allen is clearly deserving. His lifetime stats don't wow you because he didn't play as long as some of his contemporaries. However, between 1964 and 1975, the years Allen was a full time player in the Major Leagues, of the 88 players who amassed 4,000 at bats in those 12 seasons, Dick Allen had the second highest OPS of all of them. We touched on this, too.

OPS is an imperfect stat. It doesn't include defense, which was admittedly not his strong suit. It doesn't include base stealing. But it does gauge how adept a player is at getting on base, and hitting for power. And, as I stated before, if you can do both, you are a special player. And only Willie McCovey's .927 OPS was higher than Dick Allen's .924 OPS during that period of 12 years. That's higher than Hank Aaron, Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Willie Mays, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yastrzemski, Tony Oliva, Reggie Jackson, Al Kaline, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, Joe Morgan, etc etc.

During that span, Allen was 6th in home runs. He was 4th in RBI.



When you are the second best player in baseball at something over a 12 year span, and some of the greatest players in the history of the game are behind you, you should merit serious consideration. Allen was an offensive superstar.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by brewing

Allen is the only one worthy to me.

Allen will get in when everyone who was around to see him play has passed on, or forgotten what a bad actor/clubhouse lawyer he was. A great hitter, but he was truly trouble "brewing," too much of the time (pun intended)!

Sincerely,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Similarity ScoresExplanation of Similarity Scores


Similar Batters
View Similar Player Links in Pop-up
Compare Stats to Similars
1.Lance Berkman (903)
2.Reggie Smith (894)
3.Ellis Burks (890)
4.Brian Giles (889)
5.Jermaine Dye (880)
6.George Foster (880)
7.Fred Lynn (875)
8.Tim Salmon (875)
9.Shawn Green (875)
10.Rocky Colavito (873)


Not exactly an overwhelming set of names there.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Allen will get in when everyone who was around to see him play has passed on, or forgotten what a bad actor/clubhouse lawyer he was. A great hitter, but he was truly trouble "brewing," too much of the time (pun intended)!

Sincerely,

Larry

See my post above. Allen's bad reputation is waaaaaay overstated.

[Bpm0014]

Was Tommy John an influence? Or was his doctor?

[perezfan]

Definitely both.

[BicycleSpokes]

I also vote D) None of the above. All are very good, but not great...


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[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Maury Wills

[autograf]

Still holding out hope for Jessie Barfield.......and Ron Kittle. He should be in there on the popularity of his 1983 Fleer card alone...........

Hodges maybe.....none of the rest.........

[Klrdds]

My problem with the HoF veterans committee is that with the 3 year rotation between categories it seems like it is always the same old names every time with nothing new. It they weren't elected on their first few times on the ballot then why are they still on it. I mean how much more discussion is needed on these guys... nothing with their careers has changed. Wills and Howsam being new will help the ballot.
As far as more Negro Leaguers being voted on, 2006 was supposedly the final addressing of that issue even though there are still a handful of worthy candidates.

[z28jd]

Kaat missed by just two votes last time, but they added Wills and Howsam, who should both get votes. Since there is a limited number of votes allowed, I think no one gets in. That is what happens when there are no definite players on the ballot, but a lot of similar situations.

I have no problem with more players in the Hall. My solution would be to have tiers. I see no reason not to celebrate certain players that had great careers, but fell just short.

[Exhibitman]

With Kaat there are certainly some 'if he is in then Kaat should be in' arguments to be made. I never thought of him as a HOFer but I never thought of Blyleven or Sutton as one either.

Hodges? I am for it because he was the 2nd most prolific slugger of the 1950s. Snider had 326 taters, Hodges 310; Snider had 1,031 RBIs, Hodges 1,001. And that was when 50 HRs was a Ruthian milestone. A decade as the #2 slugger in the game and the 69 Mets manager? I say HOFer.

Minoso has always been a favorite of mine. The racial context definitely helps his case in my mind. He was a Negro League star for three years then spent two years in AAA [really for no good reason other than the fact that clubs were not bringing up more than one black player a year and Doby and Paige were ahead of him at Cleveland], before being brought up at age 25 where he became an instant star for a decade. A good argument could be made that he was a NL star and then an MLB star for better than a decade. Plus a total character [Don Newcombe told me a great story about Minoso: There was only one restaurant near Vero Beach that would serve the black ballplayers, so all of them went there. Minoso was easily distracted and the game was to get him going and then slip food off his plate until it was gone. Newk said that Minoso got so mad one day that he spit all over his chicken and then challenged the other players to try and take it]. I'd certainly love to see him get in.

Tony "Wish They Could Have Scoped The Knee" Oliva I'd also vote for: three batting titles, five times leading the league in hits. Better to burn out than it is to rust...

[Econteachert205]

I'd like to see tiant for reasons purely selfish. Would like Luke Easter to get attention on the negro league side. My dad says Kaat should be in and I trust his opinion.

[Centauri]

before my time, but as I understand it Jim Kaat was the best shortstop to ever play the pitcher position. That's gotta be worth somethin.

[quinnsryche]

Had to look up Bob Howsam, never heard of him, so no. Not on the original posters list but I vote for Steve Garvey and Dave Parker, no one else.

[kkkkandp]

I think Allen and Oliva belong.

Kaat (as much as I'd like to see him in) and Minoso are close but no cigar.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Hodges? I am for it because he was the 2nd most prolific slugger of the 1950s. Snider had 326 taters, Hodges 310; Snider had 1,031 RBIs, Hodges 1,001. And that was when 50 HRs was a Ruthian milestone. A decade as the #2 slugger in the game and the 69 Mets manager? I say HOFer.

This falls into the "whoopdeedoo" category of stats. Yeah, he hit the most homers in the 50s. Why? Because Willie Mays missed 2 years to the military. Hodges just happened to his prime fall perfectly in line with the decade of the 50s. Does anybody really believe he was the best slugger of the 1950s? Of course not.

Hodges misses the cut, IMHO.

[Eric72]

Wills, Hodges, Allen.

Nuf ced.

Best,

Eric

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maury Wills stats. Nuf ced indeed.


JAWS Shortstop (46th), 39.5 career WAR/29.5 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF SS (out of 21) = 66.7 career WAR/42.8 7yr-peak WAR/54.7 JAWS

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maury Wills stats. Nuf ced indeed.


JAWS Shortstop (46th), 39.5 career WAR/29.5 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF SS (out of 21) = 66.7 career WAR/42.8 7yr-peak WAR/54.7 JAWS

Peter,

It's not the, "Hall of Statistical Superiority". Maury Wills was a great player. Why shouldn't he make the cut?

Best regards,

Eric

[earlywynnfan]

If any exec out there is going to get in, it should be Howsam. He built the Cardinals of the 60's and the Big Frickin' Red Machine!

Not to start a war, but how many chances do you Hodges fans want???

[Peter_Spaeth]

My reluctance to go back and admit old timers aside, the argument for Hodges, and it's not a bad one in my view, is that there was an overall lowering of standards since his eligibility. Is he really all that different from a Jim Rice, an Andre Dawson, a Tony Perez, an Orlando Cepeda? I don't like those types of arguments in general -- X got in so Y must too -- but it seems like more of an argument about overall standards than a particular guy.

[dclarkraiders]

8 All Star Games

Won the first 3 Gold Gloves for his position. He would have won many more but Gold Gloves were not awarded until 1957.

14 career grand slams.

From 1949 - 1959, he averaged 30 home runs and 101 runs batted in per season.

In his era, he was the only player to drive in over 100 runs in 7 straight seasons.

He lost approximately 4 seasons to military service during WW II which likely delayed his career as an everyday player since he did not become an everyday player until 1949. He turned 25 years old just before the season in 1949. If he would not have served our country in WW II, his career would have likely started several years sooner which would have helped his overall career numbers.

More career homers than Mize, DiMaggio, Berra and Kiner.

Also, won a World Series as a player and manager.

By now you have probably figured out who I am talking about.

I am a great Gil Hodges fan so I am biased in my opinion but, Gil belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[kailes2872]

I like Tony Olivia - Pedro on the 63 Topps Card, #1 in your heart.

He was really nice to me at an old timers game in 1984 in Indianapolis. This was before the Colts came and they were finding ways to utilize the (then) Hoosier Dome so that the taxpayers didn't start banging fists on the table about the costs.

I was a 12 year old kid nuts about baseball history and was in heaven at a game that had Aaron, Mays and a ton of others. I walked out that night with my ball signed by Tony, Brooks Robinson, and Monte Irvin. I did a bunch of research after that and grew an apprciation for him. He was a crazy good hitter and looked to fade out quickly - was he injured?

In the if x is in, then y should be in, I use Ross Youngs and Wes Ferrell as X. therefore, be ready for Chris Sabo's inevitable induction.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

In the if x is in, then y should be in, I use Ross Youngs and Wes Ferrell as X. therefore, be ready for Chris Sabo's inevitable induction.

I like the logic, but it's flawed. Wes isn't in the HOF, but his brother, Rick, is. Hopefully there are only 1 or 2 inductees...my checkbook has taken a beating!

[packs]

I really do think Wes Ferrell deserves more credit than he gets. His ERA is ugly but its inflated by a few too many years trying to hold on to his career.

Over an 8 year stretch he won 20 games 6 times including 4 in a row. HIs 1935 season was one of the best ever for a pitcher. Led the league in wins and hit 347 with 7 homers and 32 RBIs. Unheard of for a pitcher.

But not a HOFer.

[Batter67up]

GIL Hodges

Hodges led all major-league first basemen of the 1950s in the following categories: home runs (310), games (1,477), at bats (5,313), runs (890), hits (1,491), runs batted in (1,001), total bases (2,733), strikeouts (882), and extra-base hits (585). He made the All-Star team eight times, every year from 1949-55 and again in 1957, the most of any first baseman of the time. In addition, Hodges won Gold Gloves the first three years they were given out (1957-59) and was considered the finest defensive first baseman of the era. Also, he was second among all players in the 1950s in home runs and RBIs, third in total bases and eighth in runs.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

HIs 1935 season was one of the best ever for a pitcher. Led the league in wins and hit 347 with 7 homers and 32 RBIs. Unheard of for a pitcher.

Not to be too harsh but...man, that is REALLY exaggerating things. You want to make the case for it being the best offensive season by a pitcher? Go for it. But all around best season? Not a chance. You gotta do better than 7th in your league in ERA for that.

Ferrell actually hit 9 HRs one year (1931). .319/9/30. Heckuva year.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I like the logic, but it's flawed. Wes isn't in the HOF, but his brother, Rick, is. Hopefully there are only 1 or 2 inductees...my checkbook has taken a beating!

Google is my friend! I couldn't remember which one and flipped a coin versus taking 10 seconds to look it up!

[campyfan39]

+1

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

8 All Star Games

Won the first 3 Gold Gloves for his position. He would have won many more but Gold Gloves were not awarded until 1957.

14 career grand slams.

From 1949 - 1959, he averaged 30 home runs and 101 runs batted in per season.

In his era, he was the only player to drive in over 100 runs in 7 straight seasons.

He lost approximately 4 seasons to military service during WW II which likely delayed his career as an everyday player since he did not become an everyday player until 1949. He turned 25 years old just before the season in 1949. If he would not have served our country in WW II, his career would have likely started several years sooner which would have helped his overall career numbers.

More career homers than Mize, DiMaggio, Berra and Kiner.

Also, won a World Series as a player and manager.

By now you have probably figured out who I am talking about.

I am a great Gil Hodges fan so I am biased in my opinion but, Gil belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[Big Ben]

My vote would be for Minoso and Hodges.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

He lost approximately 4 seasons to military service during WW II

He lost 2, not 4. He joined the military in 1943, missed all of the 1944 and 1945 seasons and then was in the minors for all of 1946.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

8 All Star Games

Won the first 3 Gold Gloves for his position. He would have won many more but Gold Gloves were not awarded until 1957.

14 career grand slams.

From 1949 - 1959, he averaged 30 home runs and 101 runs batted in per season.

In his era, he was the only player to drive in over 100 runs in 7 straight seasons.

He lost approximately 4 seasons to military service during WW II which likely delayed his career as an everyday player since he did not become an everyday player until 1949. He turned 25 years old just before the season in 1949. If he would not have served our country in WW II, his career would have likely started several years sooner which would have helped his overall career numbers.

More career homers than Mize, DiMaggio, Berra and Kiner.

Also, won a World Series as a player and manager.

By now you have probably figured out who I am talking about.

I am a great Gil Hodges fan so I am biased in my opinion but, Gil belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Great Post...Agreed 100%

Jeff

[bbcard1]

As a whole, the 1960s are underrepresented. I would be fine with Wills as he was a revolutionary talent who, I think, was generally assumed to be a Hall of Fame talent during his career. His reputation was tainted by off-field exploits that hurt him during his time on the ballot. Bill Freehan seems to be under appreciated to me, but it all depends on what you think the Hall of Fame should be....

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

8 All Star Games

Won the first 3 Gold Gloves for his position. He would have won many more but Gold Gloves were not awarded until 1957.

14 career grand slams.

From 1949 - 1959, he averaged 30 home runs and 101 runs batted in per season.

In his era, he was the only player to drive in over 100 runs in 7 straight seasons.

He lost approximately 4 seasons to military service during WW II which likely delayed his career as an everyday player since he did not become an everyday player until 1949. He turned 25 years old just before the season in 1949. If he would not have served our country in WW II, his career would have likely started several years sooner which would have helped his overall career numbers.

More career homers than Mize, DiMaggio, Berra and Kiner.

Also, won a World Series as a player and manager.

By now you have probably figured out who I am talking about.

I am a great Gil Hodges fan so I am biased in my opinion but, Gil belongs in the Hall of Fame.

I think Hodges belongs in the Hall of Fame, too, but bringing up he has more home runs than these guys? That doesn't help your argument.

Hodges should have more home runs than Kiner. He played 600 more games. He played 335 more games than DiMaggio, and had only 9 more home runs. How many home run titles did he win? Zero. Kiner led the league in home runs each of his first seven seasons, and I believe in six of those, he also led the Majors. DiMaggio led the league twice playing in monstrous Yankee Stadium. Mize won four home run titles, and would have won more, had he not missed three years in his prime. Hodges missed a couple years, too, but he was 20 and 21. Big difference. Berra he hit more home runs, and he should, as Berra was a catcher. Berra just won three MVP Awards. Hodges, for all those home runs, never managed a top five MVP vote. He ended up 7th once, and 8th another.

The mark against Hodges is that he never led the league...in anything important, and never finished in the top five of the MVP. Meanwhile, Campanella won three MVPs. Robinson won one. Duke Snider, in three years, was an MVP runner up, finished third and fourth in the MVP the two other years. These three guys were all considered bigger stars than Hodges. That's not to say that Hodges wasn't one of the most important players on that Dodgers team that dominated their league for a good long while. He was. That's why he will eventually get in.

[SteveMitchell]

Ken Boyer, Tony Oliva, Luis Tiant, Billy Pierce, Gil Hodges, Bob Howsam, Dick Allen, Maury Wills, Minnie Minoso and Jim Kaat - They all look good to me, except for (maybe) one: Howsam.

Some believe the National Baseball Hall of Fame to already be too thin as to talent. I'm of the view that the HOF is top-heavy with non-players although there are a number of Deadball Era non-players I would object less to than Howsam - mainly due to their long-ignored status. High among them would be Barney Dreyfuss who died in 1932.

[Chris Counts]

I don't buy this stuff about there being too many players in the Hall of Fame. Baseball is constantly changing and so is our perception of its history. Improved statistical analysis has changed the way we look at players. Plus, the Hall of Fame's standards have already been set by the induction of far less talented players like Rabbit Maranville, Bobby Wallace, Travis Jackson and at least a dozen more. Heck, somebody should be elected every year. Seeing well-deserving players like Minnie Minoso and Tony Oliva receiving their plaques at Cooperstown next summer would do wonders for connecting the next generation of baseball fans to the game's history. I'd put most of these guys in, but particularly Minnie. His stats don't begin to show how great a player he was or his many intangibles. He got a late start through no fault of his own, had an OPS higher than Clemente or Yaz, was hit by more pitches than ANYBODY before him, was once the White Sox' all-time home run king, and was so good a defensive player that when they gave out the first-ever Gold Glove awards in 1957, the three outfielders were Mays, Kaline and Minnie — and the runners-up included several other Hall of Famers.

[mattjc1983]

I tend to agree with folks that argue that the HOF is too watered down, but you make a good point about the next generation. I've already heard some statistics that baseball is losing ground in terms of interest amongst the younger generation, if there are ways to prevent that, it might be worth a shot, even if we have to give up a little purity. That said, not sure that people getting in the HOF makes any difference to whether someone likes/follows the sport or not.

[MMarvelli]

I agree 100%. Celebrate the game and the players! One of baseball's big problems is that they are a prisoner of their own history and purist attitudes. Perhaps the reason football and basketball have soared in popularity (besides the pace of their game in a lightning fast world) is because they promote new stars relentlessly and arent handicapped by a ball and chain to their past. Fill up the Hall of Fame and then add another wing!

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

I don't buy this stuff about there being too many players in the Hall of Fame. Baseball is constantly changing and so is our perception of its history. Improved statistical analysis has changed the way we look at players. Plus, the Hall of Fame's standards have already been set by the induction of far less talented players like Rabbit Maranville, Bobby Wallace, Travis Jackson and at least a dozen more. Heck, somebody should be elected every year. Seeing well-deserving players like Minnie Minoso and Tony Oliva receiving their plaques at Cooperstown next summer would do wonders for connecting the next generation of baseball fans to the game's history. I'd put most of these guys in, but particularly Minnie. His stats don't begin to show how great a player he was or his many intangibles. He got a late start through no fault of his own, had an OPS higher than Clemente or Yaz, was hit by more pitches than ANYBODY before him, was once the White Sox' all-time home run king, and was so good a defensive player that when they gave out the first-ever Gold Glove awards in 1957, the three outfielders were Mays, Kaline and Minnie — and the runners-up included several other Hall of Famers.

[Jcfowler6]

These guys shouldn't even be considered. They don't compare to the greats. Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Young, Mantle, etc. These guys don't deserve to tie there shoes for them.


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[conor912]

I am still surprised Hodges is not in. I can't make a solid argument for him deserving it, but he was to the Dodgers what Rizzuto was to the Yankees.