Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

You must have been really good at where's Waldo

Greg also kills it on those "find the six differences" things!

Seriously, great observations, Greg. My feeling (which just developed yesterday) is that the poor definition pennants are not Ad Flags, but a rip-off by some other company. Maybe the inferior screen printer changed the bridge just to cover his ass? Domer might be able to chime in on this.

Here's my orange on black and black on orange examples...

[bocca001]

The poor graphics versions do have that "bootleg" feel and look to them, and often have really bad cut jobs.

[perezfan]

I think the poor graphic ones probably are bootlegs. In addition to the dull, unrefined graphics, there are way more of them available than would normally be the case. It might be the most common "vintage" pennant ever made.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I think the poor graphic ones probably are bootlegs. In addition to the dull, unrefined graphics, there are way more of them available than would normally be the case. It might be the most common "vintage" pennant ever made.

Actually, the orange with bad graphics is a lot less available than the black with good graphics.

[perezfan]

What about the badly cut black ones with bad graphics...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19487630226...oAAOSwGjRiGp~4


The poorly defined graphics look very similar to this remake/bootleg/repro/fantasy (or whatever you want to call it). Would not be surprised if it's the same maker?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13393314769...cAAOSwJ5FhhYhj

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17518210781...8AAOSwiThiHn~Q

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What about the badly cut black ones with bad graphics...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19487630226...oAAOSwGjRiGp~4


The poorly defined graphics look very similar to this remake/bootleg/repro/fantasy (or whatever you want to call it). Would not be surprised if it's the same maker?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13393314769...cAAOSwJ5FhhYhj

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17518210781...8AAOSwiThiHn~Q

My opinion is … different maker. These last two seem better quality than the first. Somebody made defunct team pennants in the mid 1970s, the brown Browns pennant with Brownie, green Phila A’s, white Senators with the Nationals logo … even the Pilots have a repro. I think these Giants fit that mold.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Greg also kills it on those "find the six differences" things!

Seriously, great observations, Greg. My feeling (which just developed yesterday) is that the poor definition pennants are not Ad Flags, but a rip-off by some other company. Maybe the inferior screen printer changed the bridge just to cover his ass? Domer might be able to chime in on this.

Here's my orange on black and black on orange examples...

I dunno. I think the stitching on the back will tell the story, I suspect it is identical. I wish I could describe it in words but Ad Flag, Keezer, and ASCO have what looks like a double stitch, which keeps it tight. Trench and WGN have a single stitch.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

My opinion is … different maker. These last two seem better quality than the first. Somebody made defunct team pennants in the mid 1970s, the brown Browns pennant with Brownie, green Phila A’s, white Senators with the Nationals logo … even the Pilots have a repro. I think these Giants fit that mold.

...yes, someone did: Trench! Although, they were "distributed" through another company d/b/a "APSCO" of Brooklyn, NY. Occasionally these repros, which were actually made in the late 1970s, come up for sale in their original APSCO packaging, shown below, with the distinctive "Pennant Post" lettering at the top of the card header.

By the 1980s an even cheaper version of these was produced by Trench/APSCO. On these second generation repros, you'll note they were 100% screen printed atop a white (and only white) felt substrate, i.e., the blue color of the felt was itself screened on. These can be identified by their white frame surrounding the edges of the long sides of the pennant; and the reverse, which will be 100% white (not blue).

[ooo-ribay]

Those New York and Brooklyn pennants are awful.

I just checked my SF pennants we were discussing. The black one is semi-soft; the orange is stiff as a board.

Has anyone scored anything vintage lately? I have something on the way…

[thetahat]

Won a cool PCL pennant last night, Seattle Rainiers. Seems to be mid-late 60s.

[thetahat]

Interesting pic circulating on Twitter, an Ebbets Field souvenir stand from 1954. Pennants for sale are from the mystery NYC area company. Ten years later brought no changes unless the team changed (last pic which someone posted here earlier is from ‘64)

[ooo-ribay]

I saw the Seattle pennant in completed listings. Are you starting a PCL collection, Greg? I’ve been searching for a Tacoma Giants for YEARS!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I saw the Seattle pennant in completed listings. Are you starting a PCL collection, Greg? I’ve been searching for a Tacoma Giants for YEARS!

I’d love to … I only have an Angels besides this one. Never have seen Tacoma. Once owned a Seals but sold it like a dummy. I do like Minor League pennants in general … a few of my best …

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I’d love to … I only have an Angels besides this one. Never have seen Tacoma. Once owned a Seals but sold it like a dummy. I do like Minor League pennants in general … a few of my best …

Those are beauties! I only have a picture of a Tacoma pennant from a big time Tacoma collector (all Tacoma sports). It's dull and probably not even full sized. That said, if it ever turns up, you had better let me get it!

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

You have such a reference: pennantfever.weebly.com! I may not have posted any new content in a while, but I'm constantly updating the libraries for each maker as soon as new pennants are ID'd. If you haven't looked at my ADFLAG post in a few years, you'll see a few new pennants there. Same with WGN.

It's tough to keep up with Trench, however, because they made sooooo many pennants from 1940-70. They made a lot of different pennant series, too and each series generally included a pennant for all 16+ teams. Documenting them all would be quite an undertaking, so I just tried to include a few examples from each.

Oh, and the maker of the double-wide scroll pennants you reference? And, the BBC series maker? I have some answers to these questions ... but, you're gonna have to wait. New content in 2022 will answer these questions.

Not to put pressure on you Kyle...but I need my fix. Where's the new content?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Those are beauties! I only have a picture of a Tacoma pennant from a big time Tacoma collector (all Tacoma sports). It's dull and probably not even full sized. That said, if it ever turns up, you had better let me get it!

Of course!

[ooo-ribay]

I emailed the owner of the Tacoma pennant today. He said I’d have to “back up the Brinks truck” to get it. Sorry, but I’m not backing up anything for that pennant. It’s only 18” long.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I emailed the owner of the Tacoma pennant today. He said I’d have to “back up the Brinks truck” to get it. Sorry, but I’m not backing up anything for that pennant. It’s only 18” long.

Yeah he needs to relax a little …

Did you get the 1969 cloth Giants?

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Not to put pressure on you Kyle...but I need my fix. Where's the new content?

It's coming, it's coming.

Been a little busy ... but, it's gonna happen.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Did you get the 1969 cloth Giants?

I did. It arrived today.

[ooo-ribay]

There were 24 MLB teams in 1969, yes? Is it know or suspected that a cloth pennant was made for each? How many do you have, Greg?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

There were 24 MLB teams in 1969, yes? Is it know or suspected that a cloth pennant was made for each? How many do you have, Greg?

I have seen cloth for all 24 except for Oakland. I have that in felt with the 69 MLB trademark. I own 21 of the 24. It’s possible that they used cloth through 1971 as I have never seen a Senators in felt. The Phillies is super rare for some reason

[bocca001]

Picked up an older Santa Clara pennant this past week, and it has an interesting label for Ellery Arms. It's an odd shape/size, which probably points to it being decently old.

I also took an updated pic of the SF Giants pennants we had been talking about last week, just to give a full shot of the color rainbow. Greg, you asked about the stitching on the back. They all have a similar stitching pattern (some kind of double stitch) on the back, although the thread quality seems to change (more like simple thin thread on the newer ones with the smudgy graphics).

[ooo-ribay]

Completist Marc.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Picked up an older Santa Clara pennant this past week, and it has an interesting label for Ellery Arms. It's an odd shape/size, which probably points to it being decently old.

I also took an updated pic of the SF Giants pennants we had been talking about last week, just to give a full shot of the color rainbow. Greg, you asked about the stitching on the back. They all have a similar stitching pattern (some kind of double stitch) on the back, although the thread quality seems to change (more like simple thin thread on the newer ones with the smudgy graphics).

Really like the old Santa Clara pennant. It looks like the Ellery Arms Company was a catalog company/store. I'm not sure if they'd have been the manufacturer of the pennant though.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-co-2974186229

[Domer05]

Good find, Gary. I think you're spot on: Ellery Arms is what you would call a "distributor" of pennants. I highly doubt they manufactured pennants.

In my research, I've found this to be true for many of the order-by-mail retailers of the day that circulated catologues featuring felt pennants, e.g., Spalding, Sears Roebuck, etc. These catalogues were thick; sometimes hundreds of pages long. Pennants made up only a few pages within these catalogues; and therefore represented only a small part of their business.

In most instances, pennants sold via these distributors would feature no label; but, sometimes, they featured the label of the distributor--not the maker. Which has only added to the confusion as to who made them....

[bocca001]

I also just won this pennant with an Ellery label (although it hasn't arrived yet). My dad's high school.

[thetahat]

This is a weird pennant (currently on eBay). It looks like two pennant companies each made part of it. The printing along the edges is clearly Trench-like. The logo and names and spine are also. But the printing in the middle (“Souvenir … Home of Champions” is in the style of the unknown NYC area company that made the 1958 SF/LA opening day pennant and the 1954 WS pennant that was posted awhile back. Pictured is an oversized NYY of mine which is definitely not Trench ..

My guess is Trench 100% and they just “borrowed” the inner print.

[thetahat]

Gotta love eBay. This exact pennant just sold FIVE DAYS ago in auction for $490, and the winner now lists it as BIN at …

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12520641174...iMmPF&LH_BIN=1

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Gotta love eBay. This exact pennant just sold FIVE DAYS ago in auction for $490, and the winner now lists it as BIN at …

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12520641174...iMmPF&LH_BIN=1

It’ll never sell. I have that same pennant in green, and would be happy selling it for a quarter of that price.

[ooo-ribay]

I thought the Yankees pennant that Greg pointed out would go for more. Condition?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I thought the Yankees pennant that Greg pointed out would go for more. Condition?

Yankees pennants don’t seem to be in high demand, surprisingly.

[ooo-ribay]

Here's my desperate attempt to get our beloved thread back on track...

This pennant is on ebay. The seller wants waaaay too much for it but Marc and I both like the white ball. All orange SF pennants of this style are all black graphics. FWIW, I do collect Giants minor league stuff as long as the team was known as Giants and not, for example, Firebirds or Flying Squirrels.

[bocca001]

I do covet the white ball, but not for a $200 opening bid.

[Domer05]

Please tell me the Giants really were affiliated with a minor league team named, "The Flying Squirrels."

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Please tell me the Giants really were affiliated with a minor league team named, "The Flying Squirrels."

Not “were”….are! Double A affiliate.

Here’s their mascot…Nutsy

[Domer05]

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Not “were”….are! Double A affiliate.

Here’s their mascot…Nutsy

I have coached in their ballpark (also home to Virginia Commonwealth Univ.). Kind of a dump.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I have coached in their ballpark (also home to Virginia Commonwealth Univ.). Kind of a dump.

“The Diamond.”

Not a diamond in the rough?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

“The Diamond.”

Not a diamond in the rough?

A diamond in a rough area of Richmond … it has seen better days

[vintagesportscollector]

Is anyone familiar with this maker? It is a label on a large oversized 1915 pennant. I am curious if they were a small local maker or if they produced more broadly or became known under a different name.

Thanks
Joe

[Domer05]

Joe,

I'm not familiar with any maker d/b/a "College Flag Co." However, I am familiar with two pennant makers located in Columbus, OH doing business in the mid-1910s: Ohio Pennant Co. and H.A. Morgan Co. See below examples.

As concerns the latter company's label ... it sure resembles yours, doesn't it?? Same font. Both say, "COLUMBUS, O" which strikes me as kind of unique.

Maybe Mr. Morgan sold the business by 1915, and the new owner adopted your name? Hard to imagine there being three pennant makers in one college town....

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Joe,

I'm not familiar with any maker d/b/a "College Flag Co." However, I am familiar with two pennant makers located in Columbus, OH doing business in the mid-1910s: Ohio Pennant Co. and H.A. Morgan Co. See below examples.

As concerns the latter company's label ... it sure resembles yours, doesn't it?? Same font. Both say, "COLUMBUS, O" which strikes me as kind of unique.

Maybe Mr. Morgan sold the business by 1915, and the new owner adopted your name? Hard to imagine there being three pennant makers in one college town....

I think that theory has merit. I knew Domer wouldn’t let us down!

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Joe,

I'm not familiar with any maker d/b/a "College Flag Co." However, I am familiar with two pennant makers located in Columbus, OH doing business in the mid-1910s: Ohio Pennant Co. and H.A. Morgan Co. See below examples.

As concerns the latter company's label ... it sure resembles yours, doesn't it?? Same font. Both say, "COLUMBUS, O" which strikes me as kind of unique.

Maybe Mr. Morgan sold the business by 1915, and the new owner adopted your name? Hard to imagine there being three pennant makers in one college town....

Thanks Domer! I think that makes sense.

[perezfan]

And you thought there were no more bargains on ebay...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38480930442...cAAOSwxk5iRiRN


https://www.ebay.com/itm/38480928266...UAAOSwXA5iRh7T

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

And you thought there were no more bargains on ebay...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38480930442...cAAOSwxk5iRiRN


https://www.ebay.com/itm/38480928266...UAAOSwXA5iRh7T

That Cardinals pennant must have been a stunner, when brand new! 1950’s?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

That Cardinals pennant must have been a stunner, when brand new! 1950’s?

Late '50s would be the very earliest guess. Probably more like early 1960s (and worth $70 - $80 at best)

[Fballguy]

Who were the bootleggers and why were they so good at quality control?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Late '50s would be the very earliest guess. Probably more like early 1960s (and worth $70 - $80 at best)

Those “plain” Trenches are beautiful, including both of these.

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Who were the bootleggers and why were they so good at quality control?

Super Champs!

With rookie pitching phenom Dave Rigelli.