Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[calvindog]

Gee, those high grade E93s sure look altered to me. Thoughts?

A sample: PSA 9 Cobb: http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDet...entoryid=39084

PSA 9 Wagner: http://www.milehighcardco.com/1910_E...-lot39083.aspx

[RaidonCollects]

I'm not too sure, I'm no expert, keen too see everyone else's thoughts.

^ You might have to put you're full name under the post.

-Owen

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Gee, those high grade E93s sure look altered to me. Thoughts?

A sample: PSA 9 Cobb: http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDet...entoryid=39084

PSA 9 Wagner: http://www.milehighcardco.com/1910_E...-lot39083.aspx

I don't know. That's why I like my vintage cards to look "vintage". When they are perfect, they look fake.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

I'm not too sure, I'm no expert, keen too see everyone else's thoughts.

^ You might have to put you're full name under the post.

Owen Randell

I'd rather not put my full name under my post.

[pokerplyr80]

I'm certainly not an expert, but other than looking too good to be true, what specifically makes you think these could be altered?

The bottom right corner of the Wagner does look a little off to me.

[calvindog]

[pencil1974]

I guess I'm not seeing it either. The pic of the Cobb 5 is not even close to the 9 they would have to rebuild that bottom right corner so I would say that one is out. The 6 seems close but it has a diagonal line going from the edge to Cobbs shoulder area plus looks to be a black print dot beside his hat that is not on the 9 either.

Now the Wagner looks really close on the front with what we call in the print industry as a "hickey". Seems to be in the same place on the card but that can happen as I've seen them pull sheets in a run that the hickey is in the same spot of the first 20 sheets and is either fixed or fills in on its own as the run keeps going. There are a few spots on the back of the Wagner that are not on the example of the 6 (could be that the image quality is too bad but you should see it).

So if I'm understanding the comparisons correctly they seem close but not exact. Just my opinion though.

[calvindog]

They're the same cards.

[111gecko]

Oh my.......

[glchen]

For what it's worth, the Wagner cert #50082111 and the Cobb cert #50082116 no longer exist in the PSA cert database, which usually means the card has been cracked out, and the cert returned to PSA. (The Cobb cert #20082114 still exists.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

The two non-9 Cobbs are only two cert numbers apart. Different cards same sub presumably.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

They're the same cards.

OMG!!!

The Wagner has a black printing dot by his right ear on both cards.

Tony

[scottglevy]

Wow Jeff,

The similarities in the Wagner cards are striking. There are other minor printing defects that match up perfectly on the two cards.

It's sad to say but this sort of thing sours me on the hobby so much

Best,
Scott

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Wow Jeff,

The similarities in the Wagner cards are striking. There are other minor printing defects that match up perfectly on the two cards.

It's sad to say but this sort of thing sours me on the hobby so much

Best,
Scott

totally agree!

[Bored5000]

Not that I could ever afford a mint caramel or tobacco Hall of Famer, but threads like this make me appreciate my mostly fair to very good pre-war collection.

[autograf]

So do you have the smoking gun or are you going on circumstantial evidence counselor?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by autograf

So do you have the smoking gun or are you going on circumstantial evidence counselor?

Fair question but I'd rather not say. Not on Net 54 anyway.

[oldjudge]

Jeff--on the Cobb I can see the 6 turning into the 9. However, if you are saying the 5 became the 6, which became the 9, I can't see that. The 6 has a stain in the UL corner (viewer's UL) that is not on the 5. The Wagner I can absolutely see. Great work!
Can you say if this is the doing of a soon to be incarcerated offender, or a hopefully in the future incarcerated offender?

[autograf]

I can't see the 6 becoming the 9. The orange color shift down on the 6 leads me to believe the 5 became the 9. JMO.........................

[benchod]

My first thought when seeing the auction was that they had been given a " bath".
The orange background on the Cobb is washed out

[ullmandds]

are any of these from the former jim b collection?

[benchod]

No

[steve B]

I'm not sure about the Cobbs, I also think if one was turned into a 9 it was more likely the 5 than the 6 because of the registration.

The Wagners are a different story.
The fisheye behind his head makes the pair more suspect than I'd be comfortable with. Fisheyes are from debris on the offset blanket, and can be on only one card or several, probably fewer back then, potentially hundreds in the 70's probably fewer today.

But the odds of two cards with the same defect in the same spot surviving in really nice condition over a century from (I presume) different original sources? Outside of two finds like the black swamp group, that's pushing the envelope a bit too far.
Now if they were beaters...........Yeah, that stuff happens and two worn cards with the same flaw wouldn't be a surprise.

Steve Birmingham

[benchod]

The Matty is washed out also
Jim B's is much nicer

[Peter_Spaeth]

What a tangled web of sh&t this "hobby" is sometimes.

Quotes Jimi: "Now if 6 turned out to be 9
I don't mind, I don't mind."

Not a bad payday for taking out some stains.

[bbcemporium]

Tough to tell on the Cobb. It looks like the Wagner has been submitted a few times. These all have the black fisheye by the ear, but the red backgrounds appear to have subtle differences, which could just be due to scanner settings.






(edited to add the PSA 6 and PSA 9 scans for comparison)

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What a tangled web of sh&t this "hobby" is sometimes.

There's a higher percentage of convicted criminals in the baseball card auction house business than there is in the Mafia (not that I'm being critical of Mile High because all they did is accept the consignments). None of this should be a surprise.

[bbcemporium]

Jeff, besides soaking, are there other suspected alterations on the cards?

[benchod]

Well,
I think a big share of the blame falls on the TPG.
It's fairly obvious to the naked eye those cards all have the washed out look from being soaked in chemicals.
"Don't get cheated"







Craig Lipman

[atx840]

Wags is 99%

Cobbs are very very close, likely the same but really need a better scan.

[pokerplyr80]

It's certainly hard to argue with the evidence.

I've seen this question asked before on similar threads, but do you guys believe that PSA simply missed this or that they're in on it some how?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's certainly hard to argue with the evidence.

I've seen this question asked before on similar threads, but do you guys believe that PSA simply missed this or that they're in on it some how?

personally I think they are not capable of detecting such alterations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

personally I think they are not capable of detecting such alterations.

It's hard to understand. They have some very experienced people, and you would hope that before giving NINES to very expensive cards, that are almost never seen in that grade, those people would be consulted and that these weren't just the decision of a novice or low level grader. On the other hand, the conspiracy version of the explanation isn't really credible either.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's hard to understand. They have some very experienced people, and you would hope that before giving NINES to very expensive cards, that are almost never seen in that grade, those people would be consulted and that these weren't just the decision of a novice or low level grader. On the other hand, the conspiracy version of the explanation isn't really credible either.

i agree Peter...maybe they funnel such cards as these to the inexperienced graders so the likelihood of them passing muster is greater???

[Peter_Spaeth]

If these cards get pulled, and if PSA is called upon to reimburse the consignor, the bill could be hefty.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i agree Peter...maybe they funnel such cards as these to the inexperienced graders so the likelihood of them passing muster is greater???

I would assume that multiple people would have to review a card like this, given the highest grade it has ever received. I have called PSA to check the status of a submission and told it was waiting for someone else to review it. And this was a card only worth a few hundred bucks.

To let someone inexperienced encase a card with a grade that will instantly make it worth 30-50k, or more, would seem to undermine the credibility of the entire company.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i agree Peter...maybe they funnel such cards as these to the inexperienced graders so the likelihood of them passing muster is greater???

Look at the sub, well one of them anyhow. Not the type to get kicked down to the basement. I would not think. These aren't 80s commons.
PSA Certficiation Check




Cert Year Brand Player Variety Grade

15132902 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL NAP LAJOIE NM-MT 8
15132903 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL FRED CLARKE NM-MT+ 8.5
15132904 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL FRANK CHANCE EX 5
15132905 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL CLARK GRIFFITH NM-MT 8
15132906
15132907
15132908
15132909 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL HONUS WAGNER NM+ 7.5
15132910 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL TY COBB MINT 9
15132911 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL CHRISTY MATHEWSON MINT 9
15132912 1911 M116 SPORTING LIFE JIMMY WALSH GOOD 2
15132913 1948 BOWMAN HERMAN WEHMEIER MINT 9
15132914 1948 BOWMAN JOE PAGE NM-MT+ 8.5
15132915 1948 BOWMAN FRANK SHEA GEM MT 10
15132916 1948 BOWMAN WARREN SPAHN NM 7
15132917
15132918 1948 BOWMAN RALPH KINER NM-MT 8
15132919 1948 BOWMAN NM-MT+ 8.5
15132920

[ullmandds]

im the wrong kind of doctor!

[ullmandds]

i'm just talking out loud here...trying to hypothesize what may have occurred.

If it were MY grading company you can be assured the best graders as well as myself would see these uber high grade rarities prior to grading them.

Since I don't own PSA...I cannot begin to guess how they handle their business...but from all of the errors I've seen them make...and other shenanigans...I have no idea what to make of this??

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at the sub, well one of them anyhow. Not the type to get kicked down to the basement. I would not think. These aren't 80s commons.
PSA Certficiation Check




Cert Year Brand Player Variety Grade

15132902 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL NAP LAJOIE NM-MT 8
15132903 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL FRED CLARKE NM-MT+ 8.5
15132904 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL FRANK CHANCE EX 5
15132905 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL CLARK GRIFFITH NM-MT 8
15132906
15132907
15132908
15132909 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL HONUS WAGNER NM+ 7.5
15132910 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL TY COBB MINT 9
15132911 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL CHRISTY MATHEWSON MINT 9
15132912 1911 M116 SPORTING LIFE JIMMY WALSH GOOD 2
15132913 1948 BOWMAN HERMAN WEHMEIER MINT 9
15132914 1948 BOWMAN JOE PAGE NM-MT+ 8.5
15132915 1948 BOWMAN FRANK SHEA GEM MT 10
15132916 1948 BOWMAN WARREN SPAHN NM 7
15132917
15132918 1948 BOWMAN RALPH KINER NM-MT 8
15132919 1948 BOWMAN NM-MT+ 8.5
15132920

Out of curiosity, what is up with the randomly skipped Certs? Cards that got rejected for some reason?

DJ

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'm just talking out loud here...trying to hypothesize what may have occurred.

If it were MY grading company you can be assured the best graders as well as myself would see these uber high grade rarities prior to grading them.

Since I don't own PSA...I cannot begin to guess how they handle their business...but from all of the errors I've seen them make...and other shenanigans...I have no idea what to make of this??

None of the plausible explanations look good for them. One, their best graders missed it. Two, it was signed off on by lesser graders. Three, not sure what three is. We won't hear from them of course, so we will just have to speculate.

[calvindog]

Any question in anyone's mind that these cards aren't pulled from the auction?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Any question in anyone's mind that these cards aren't pulled from the auction?

i can't imagine why they'd be pulled?

[bbcemporium]

If these cards were only soaked in water (not a chemical), which alteration is PSA expected to find?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bbcemporium

If these cards were only soaked in water (not a chemical), which alteration is PSA expected to find?

The cards were not simply soaked in water.

[pencil1974]

No chance they are pulled unless there is more evidence than a few lo-res scans that look similar but not exact. I'm not saying you're right or wrong but it's tough to tell by what's provided (at least on the Cobb).

[pokerplyr80]

I don't think there's any chance of them being pulled from the auction.

[ls7plus]

Just weighing in. I think that the old adage likely applies: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Regards,

Larry

[glchen]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Out of curiosity, what is up with the randomly skipped Certs? Cards that got rejected for some reason?

DJ

The randomly skipped cert #'s would either be cards that were rejected for some reason or cards that were graded, but later cracked out and the cert's sent back to PSA (e.g. to try for re-submission).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

The randomly skipped cert #'s would either be cards that were rejected for some reason or cards that were graded, but later cracked out and the cert's sent back to PSA (e.g. to try for re-submission).

Why would someone trying to get a better grade send in the old cert.? In that case why not just submit for a bump?