Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

I'm pretty sure we know Jackie missed prime years.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

[PowderedH2O]

I'd list him either 3rd or 4th. I would put Morgan and Collins 1-2 in some order, then Hornsby and Jackie in some order 3-4. That's pretty lofty company for a guy that got started so late.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm Rajah, Jackie, Morgan, Collins, but either way it's hardly a "real stretch" to put him in the top 2 or 3.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

Rogers Hornsby & Joe Morgan definitely

and maybe...

Eddie Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Roberto Alomar & Ryne Sandberg

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Rogers Hornsby & Joe Morgan definitely

and maybe...

Eddie Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Roberto Alomar & Ryne Sandberg

again obviously it's a matter than can be debated, but saying it's a stretch to put him in the top two or 3 means, to me, that you think he's WAY outside that rarified air. If we're debating where he falls in the top 5 it's hardly a stretch to say he's 2 or 3.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

again obviously it's a matter than can be debated, but saying it's a stretch to put him in the top two or 3 means, to me, that you think he's WAY outside that rarified air. If we're debating where he falls in the top 5 it's hardly a stretch to say he's 2 or 3.

He is 17th in WAR, he is 13th in JAWS, 5th in WAR7 and 5th (or tied for 4th) in OPS+. It is a stretch to project him as higher than 5th if he had a full career when his prime was lower than the other 4. I have him above every player with a lower peak and every player who was a worse hitter, regardless of any other factors. I don't see how you can put him in the top 2 or 3 with great players like Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins and Morgan at the position. All 5 are in the rarified air of all time greats in my opinion. As a person, Jackie stands above all of them.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

Even if we use Jackie's top 5 seasons of WAR, 42.2, these 4 players had more WAR in their 5 best seasons.

1. Rogers Hornsby 53.6 (49.2 best 5 consecutive seasons, 98.1 WAR over 10 consecutive seasons)
2. Joe Morgan 47.8 (5 consecutive seasons)
3. Eddie Collins 47.7 (career WAR 124)
4. Nap Lajoie 44.8 (career WAR 107.4)

If you use OPS+
1. Rogers Hornsby 175
2. Nap Lajoie 150
3. Eddie Collins 141
4. Joe Morgan 132
4. Jackie Robinson 132

[PowderedH2O]

Hornsby was easily the best hitter, but he was not a great defensive player, nor did he run the bases like the others. Also, from all accounts, Hornsby was not a tremendous leader or team player. Morgan, Collins, and Robinson all had that "it" factor. They were winners.

[packs]

If you see the guy as a top 5 all time 2B then why would you suggest he wouldn't have had a significantly better career if he started it before 28?

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by packs

If you see the guy as a top 5 all time 2B then why would you suggest he wouldn't have had a significantly better career if he started it before 28?

The reality is that he likely missed two to three years of playing time as he was in the military for several years during WW2 until he was unjustly court martialed and discharged at the end of 1944.

[frankbmd]

Clemente’s movie will undoubtedly be titled “21”.

As a sequel so to speak of “42”, will it be half as good or half as long?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

Agreed. Top 2 or 3 at 2nd base means you have to put him ahead of at least half of these guys: Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Joe Morgan, Nap Lajoie. That's untenable. The order is debatable, but those are pretty clearly the top 4.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

Only half his career at 2b if I recall. Same issue with Rose although in his case it's even less than half. Same problem I have calling Yount or Banks a top 5 shortstop.

[Exhibitman]

Plus, his cards look really nice.



For my money the best looking of the 1956 Topps cards.

And again in 1969:



and 1972:



Such a shame there wasn't a 1974 Topps tribute card to Clemente.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A few of my favorites.

Many great cards of him.

[aloondilana]

I too have often used Al Kaline as an example to compare what Clemente's worth would be if he wasn't the hispanic poster boy and didn't die tragically.

Clemente was a great all around player, but in no way shape or form should his cards be in or above the range of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams etc.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.

His SLG was the same as Morgan's. Less power but a lot more hits.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter

Define "clutch".

One measure of "clutch" situations is guys in scoring position. Morgan hit .261 with RISP. 2 outs and RISP, just .253.

"Late & Close", he hit .265.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Define "clutch".

One measure of "clutch" situations is guys in scoring position. Morgan hit .261 with RISP. 2 outs and RISP, just .253.

"Late & Close", he hit .265.

What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most assessments of someone's "clutch" hitting are anecdotal and biased. I very much doubt that over a career many players deviate significantly from their BA however you define "clutch" situations.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?

Who are we talking about?