1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in PWCC Auction

[Republicaninmass]

And please dont compare Apples to Eron David, I give you more credit than that.

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[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

And please dont compare Apples to Eron David, I give you more credit than that.

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The obvious point is there have been loads of issues with autographs and people still collect them. I believe the same will prove to be true with cards.

A comment was made in a thread I read last night about the range of alterations and what is okay and what isn't okay. I for one as I have said was surprised when I learned that soaking and spooning were all deemed acceptable so it is clear there is a wide range of opinions on what constitutes alteration.

The card that was presented that Sotheby's expert had "restored" gives further credence to the art and antique car analogies. I wonder how many of the collectors that purchase these relics actually care. It might be a lot it might not be as many as people think.

I continue to believe though it is naive to think that if Picasso's can be restored and collector cars can too to mimic their original state that trading cards somehow can't and wont be.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I continue to believe though it is naive to think that if Picasso's can be restored and collector cars can too to mimic their original state that trading cards somehow can't and wont be.

I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.

I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.

Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

Yes the timing was poor.

I admittedly do not know what to think about it. Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

Brent makes it very clear in that video that there are quite a few cards that have been "conserved". He has a very matter of fact look on his face and with being so connected to the hobby and seeing thousands upon thousands of cards I think it is clear he is right. Whether one thinks it is the right opinion or belief appears to be up for debate.

I do find it odd that some who are totally okay with soaking which in my view is attempting to improve the cards appearance or restore it is okay but other methods are worthy of the death penalty.

In life many try and justify wrong doing by saying well others do it or it is not as bad as killing someone etc. but once that line is crossed it is crossed and now you are in new territory.

I can't get in the head of someone buying these cards so I will leave what is okay or acceptable up to them and as I said there may be many of these collectors that are perfectly fine with "conservation" and would rather look at a much nicer card. I have to assume that many of these same collectors have exposure to other high end collectible asset classes and trading cards appears to be the only area where it is taboo but yet still accepted.

Very complicated topic that is for sure.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Yes the timing was poor.
Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town around me back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

A comment was made in a thread I read last night about the range of alterations and what is okay and what isn't okay. I for one as I have said was surprised when I learned that soaking and spooning were all deemed acceptable so it is clear there is a wide range of opinions on what constitutes alteration.

Huh? Spooning deemed acceptable? Where did you read that? I don't think anyone on this forum deems spooning of cards an acceptable practice.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Huh? Spooning deemed acceptable? Where did you read that? I don't think anyone on this forum deems spooning of cards an acceptable practice.

It's ok with a significant other though.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's ok with a significant other though.

But I like forking a whole lot better

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[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Huh? Spooning deemed acceptable? Where did you read that? I don't think anyone on this forum deems spooning of cards an acceptable practice.

I read just yesterday someone say they have read plenty of times that spooning out a wrinkle is okay.

Using chemicals on cards as long as they don't smell after has been stated as okay.

I would have never dreamed that the same crowd that is upset would be okay with that.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I read just yesterday someone say they have read plenty of times that spooning out a wrinkle is okay.

Using chemicals on cards as long as they don't smell after has been stated as okay.

I would have never dreamed that the same crowd that is upset would be okay with that.

The majority of people saying it is OK are the ones doing it.

[Rich Klein]

One Note on 1952 Topps Mantles. Remember Al Rosen found that cache of unopened 1952 Hi #s circa 1986. Those cards almost all came out clean and sharp and I could tell whenever I saw a find card at shows for the next few years. This card could be (and may well be) an absolutely legit 8.

Regards
Rich

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

One Note on 1952 Topps Mantles. Remember Al Rosen found that cache of unopened 1952 Hi #s circa 1986. Those cards almost all came out clean and sharp and I could tell whenever I saw a find card at shows for the next few years. This card could be (and may well be) an absolutely legit 8.

Nobody has said that this card has any issues. Only that it's bizarre they would use PWCC to sell it at this moment.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I read just yesterday someone say they have read plenty of times that spooning out a wrinkle is okay.

Using chemicals on cards as long as they don't smell after has been stated as okay.

I would have never dreamed that the same crowd that is upset would be okay with that.

Yes, I know which comment you are referring to and I think he was just talking out of his a** when he made that statement about everyone being OK with spooning cards.

"Hi, I'm Bob, and I think it's totally OK with spooning cards! I just spooned my 51' Bowman Mantle last night! Wanna' see it? Hehe!"

Have you ever read anything like that on here, David? I haven't and I've been on here for quite a while.

And I also don't believe that people on this forum would be OK with soaking cards in chemicals. Some of these chemicals can turn your card brittle and then you know what happens next, right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Yes, I know which comment you are referring to and I think he was just talking out of his a** when he made that statement about everyone being OK with spooning cards.

"Hi, I'm Bob, and I think it's totally OK with spooning cards! I just spooned my 51' Bowman Mantle last night! Wanna' see it? Hehe!"

Have you ever read anything like that on here, David? I haven't and I've been on here for quite a while.

And I also don't believe that people on this forum would be OK with soaking cards in chemicals. Some of these chemicals can turn your card brittle and then you know what happens next, right?

Cleaning with chemicals is generally regarded I would think as a lesser offense than trimming and recoloring, with crease removal somewhere in between, but it's all bad in my opinion.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Yes, I know which comment you are referring to and I think he was just talking out of his a** when he made that statement about everyone being OK with spooning cards.

"Hi, I'm Bob, and I think it's totally OK with spooning cards! I just spooned my 51' Bowman Mantle last night! Wanna' see it? Hehe!"

Have you ever read anything like that on here, David? I haven't and I've been on here for quite a while.

And I also don't believe that people on this forum would be OK with soaking cards in chemicals. Some of these chemicals can turn your card brittle and then you know what happens next, right?

I am no expert on any of this and just read what people have to say. As I said it seems that some of these methods that I would think constitute alteration are accepted by some and once you go from virgin cards to an attempt to improve their appearance you have started the process and there doesn't appear to be a 100% consensus on the matter.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I am no expert on any of this and just read what people have to say. As I said it seems that some of these methods that I would think constitute alteration are accepted by some and once you go from virgin cards to an attempt to improve their appearance you have started the process and there doesn't appear to be a 100% consensus on the matter.

is it that you are missing the point entirely or is it going over your head? I'm not sure.

It's not whether or not it's acceptable.... It's CRIMINAL without disclosing it PERIOD.

That's the point. Head, Point. I made a funny son.