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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

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  #1  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:11 PM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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Default A Word about 40K Bats - Babe Ruth , Ty Cobb, etc.

I do not think collectors and dealers fully understand 40K bats.

It is my understanding that 40k and 125 model bats are identifiable as "pro model" to the same extent as each another.

It is my understanding that different model 40k cork-grip bats were made for stores - such as the 40BR and ones with inch marks and other store model characteristics - same as for 125 model bats.

It is my understanding that a Babe Ruth signature model 125 (without inch marks, etc.) was either made for (i) Babe Ruth - or (ii) another major or minor leaguer. Similarly, a Babe Ruth signature model 40K (without inch marks, etc.) was either made for (i) Babe Ruth, or (ii) another major or minor league player.

Based on the above, the values for a pro model Babe Ruth 40k and a pro model Babe Ruth 125 model should not be different. It makes ZERO sense. If both a 40K and a 125 are to Ruth's specifications (weight and length, etc.), they each have an equal chance of having been used by him.

When you buy a bat, you are essentially buying a bat with a PERCENTAGE CHANCE of having been used by the player.

So long as a player's ordering records or photos, etc. show use of a 40k model, we should not be attributing a different percentage chance of having used the bat in a game to model 40k than we would to a model 125, when 40k and 125 model bats are identifiable as "pro model" to the same extent as each another.

This is my understanding; happy to receive additional information.

Last edited by BigJJ; 05-15-2012 at 06:06 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:40 PM
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Thanks for your information on this. I have always been looking to buy a GU bat, but have been confused by this. I have a few of other questions.

(1) First, let's get the dumb one out of the way. First if someone has a Ruth pro model bat, and say that there are no game used marks on it (e.g., something like a ball mark where the bat hit a ball), could this be added a later time. For example, a guy has a pristine Ruth bat that looks like it was never used. He takes it to his backyard, and hits a couple of balls with it, to "produce" these marks. Is this possible or can people tell that this "mark" was done in "modern" times? (I assume this is not possible to tell.)

On a similar note, I assume there is no way to tell if Ruth actually used the bat, even if the marks were legitimate? That is, one of Ruth's teammates could have borrowed his bat, and used it instead? Do we know if this practice was fairly common or pretty rare (e.g., players borrowing each others bats in prewar times)

(2) Do we know how these bats typically survived to modern times? For example, other than Ruth giving a bat away to a friend or fan, how did the public typically get these bats? Do most of them come from the player's estate? Or did some people just find a bunch of bats at the bat company? For example, many old photos are found when the archives of newspapers go on sale. Did something happen for bats in a similar way? e.g., at the end of every year, the Yankees would sell/give away old bats/memorabilia to the public.

(3) For bats, it is stated that there is only a percentage chance that the player actually used it. How about other memorabilia like jerseys? If there is a Ruth uniform (or hat, etc), is there practically a 100% chance that was used by the player? (assuming it was not counterfeit) For jerseys, it is more about whether any restoration was done (e.g., new buttons) rather than questioning whether the player actually used it? Thanks!
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  #3  
Old 05-14-2012, 03:57 PM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is online now
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I've always been intrigued by game used bats. I mean how much closer can you possibly get to the player than his bat?(presumably and hopefully used by him) I don't know a ton about bats so I will pay attention to this thread. Great questions have already been asked and here's mine....Since autographs have slipped passed the authentication process and so have graded cards, what about game used bats? Isn't it possible that fraudsters can get a bat to match up to a players specs and pass the authentication process in much the same way?
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  #4  
Old 05-14-2012, 06:12 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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I only have a few game used bats, so I'm far from expert. But I'll give it a go and the experts can correct me if I'm way off.

1) I suppose it depends, faking marks that are old might be difficult, but I guess anythings possible. I'm pretty sure I don't have enough bat speed to duplicate the sort of marks someone like the Babe would have caused. More modern marks maybe. Of course the risk is wrecking a nice lightly or unused pro bat.

Some people have studied at length the stuff a player does to a bat. Different use of pine tar, tape etc. Knowing a player usally taped a certain way helps. I think the LS bats have released the order books so you can find out if a certain player ordered a bat that size weight and finish. But I think it's easier to figure out a particular player didn't use a bat than that he did.

2) Lots of ways. The ones I have are from a wide range of eras,

1900-10 ish. Got it from a family friend who broke it playing softball The player was from Maine, and I think his family had some Maine connection, so the player probably had a few around and gave them away. At the time they were just old bats. (I got a couple old but not pro bats too)

1950's Found at a flea market. I used to check the markings on any crummy old bat I saw and to my surprise got a pro bat. Probably the same thing, the player had a few and gave them away to friends then eventually it found its way to the bat barrel in the barn and flea market.

1970's-early 80's Dwight Evans game used, bought from Fenway sports cards. They had a clubhouse guy who sold them batches of broken bats that would have been thrown away. ($9 in I think 1979)

Late 80's Cubs. Maybe Damon Berryhill? maybe just a BP bat with his number writen on it. By then some teams were selling bats as souveneirs. Early 90's the Red Sox had a store in the mall that sold game used bats alongside the replica uniforms hats, upper deck autographs etc. You could even place an order for some players.

Some I heard about survived other ways, like ending up in the stands.

3) I know less about jerseys. But many old ones got recycled to the minor leagues, so un modified/unrestored ones aren't typical.

Steve B

Quote:
Originally Posted by glchen View Post
Thanks for your information on this. I have always been looking to buy a GU bat, but have been confused by this. I have a few of other questions.

(1) First, let's get the dumb one out of the way. First if someone has a Ruth pro model bat, and say that there are no game used marks on it (e.g., something like a ball mark where the bat hit a ball), could this be added a later time. For example, a guy has a pristine Ruth bat that looks like it was never used. He takes it to his backyard, and hits a couple of balls with it, to "produce" these marks. Is this possible or can people tell that this "mark" was done in "modern" times? (I assume this is not possible to tell.)

On a similar note, I assume there is no way to tell if Ruth actually used the bat, even if the marks were legitimate? That is, one of Ruth's teammates could have borrowed his bat, and used it instead? Do we know if this practice was fairly common or pretty rare (e.g., players borrowing each others bats in prewar times)

(2) Do we know how these bats typically survived to modern times? For example, other than Ruth giving a bat away to a friend or fan, how did the public typically get these bats? Do most of them come from the player's estate? Or did some people just find a bunch of bats at the bat company? For example, many old photos are found when the archives of newspapers go on sale. Did something happen for bats in a similar way? e.g., at the end of every year, the Yankees would sell/give away old bats/memorabilia to the public.

(3) For bats, it is stated that there is only a percentage chance that the player actually used it. How about other memorabilia like jerseys? If there is a Ruth uniform (or hat, etc), is there practically a 100% chance that was used by the player? (assuming it was not counterfeit) For jerseys, it is more about whether any restoration was done (e.g., new buttons) rather than questioning whether the player actually used it? Thanks!
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  #5  
Old 05-14-2012, 08:39 PM
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WOW.. This is one of the threads where guys like Bushing, JT, Zane, Art Jaffe, etc would share there thoughts.

As far as what BigJJ said, he couldn't be more wrong. Kork grip bats were produced for retail and professional use. Look for pro models to be hand turned, with no inch and match player specs. Retail have inch marks.

A 40 br is in NO WAY related to the 40k's. A 40 Br is a retail Babe ruth bat. PLease note, 125 bats were also made for retail, and again have inch marks.

As far some of the other questions.. yes, a mint original ruth bat could have the use faked on it and you would never know unless you did it. There are traits to look for on many bats, such as locations of ball marks, concentration of use, tape patterns etc.

BigJJ, would you mind signing your name so we know who we are talking with.
Matt Hart
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  #6  
Old 05-14-2012, 08:41 PM
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Default Question for BigJJ

Did you buy or consign the Ruth 40k in REA?
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  #7  
Old 05-14-2012, 09:19 PM
MacDice MacDice is offline
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It can be very difficult if not impossible to prove who actually swing a bat without photo matching. In my years coaching, I have seen several players using "big league" wood that could be very easily passed as game used bat of the player whose name was on the barrell. Last summer I had a kid that broke 4 bats in 5 games all of which came directly from a MLB clubhouse in spring training. He could have easily sold them on eBay with very little questions.
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  #8  
Old 05-15-2012, 12:22 AM
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"(2) Do we know how these bats typically survived to modern times? For example, other than Ruth giving a bat away to a friend or fan, how did the public typically get these bats? Do most of them come from the player's estate? Or did some people just find a bunch of bats at the bat company? For example, many old photos are found when the archives of newspapers go on sale. Did something happen for bats in a similar way? e.g., at the end of every year, the Yankees would sell/give away old bats/memorabilia to the public."

A good number of bats were saved by family, friends, and fans. That is how I got my first old bats. But the big event was in the early 1990's, when Hillerich and Bradsby sold their inventory of game used bats. Over the years, these bats had been sent to them by players for use as models for future bats. There were, if I recall, about 8000 bats in that sale, and about 10% were from hall of fame players. The marks placed by the factory on one of these bats is considered evidence that this player used the bat in games. Not many of these side written bats exist for any particular player.
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  #9  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:50 AM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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What I am saying is that there are pro model 40ks and pro model 125s.

AND it is my understanding that they (40k and 125) are identifiable as "pro model" to the same extent as each another.

What you have written confirms this I believe. Please add any additional information to this thread, that a 40k (without inch marks etc.) is in any way a lesser bat to a 125 (without inch marks etc.).

I agree regarding inch marks, etc. and have amended the above, though this is not the heart of what I wanted to discuss - which is the weight given to 40k versus 125, when it is my understanding they are pro model to the same extent.

What does not make sense to me is the difference in value between a 125 and a 40k - of a player with ordering records, or photos, or other evidence, of having used both models. Do you disagree? Again the heart of this is the weight given to 125 versus 40k and if there is any evidence as to 125 being any more pro model than 40k.

I am convinced the difference in values between 125 and 40k stem from a lack of knowledge. This is the only explanation, in my opinion, when it is my understanding that both are pro model to the same extent - unless others have evidence that a 40k is any less of a bat to a 125, or vice versa.

Last edited by BigJJ; 05-15-2012 at 07:01 AM.
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  #10  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:14 AM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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Like the internet, if it's in an auction catalog it must be true.

if you take your time to read through auction descriptions they tell you they aren't really sure. In one instance, Mears tells you that the first was a Wagner, then a Cobb.

They list a Cobb article from December 20, 1913 asking H&B to come up with a cork bat for use in 1914

One of their other reserchers says because the copyright say September 1914 then the bats were not used till the 1915 season.

Logic would tell you that like anyone, players would not experiment with new things during the season, but they would try stuff out in spring training.

Is that where the pictures come from?

if the bats are to the players specs? Then haven't the specs changed as they have now added weight, ever so small to the handle of the bat.

If you add cork or another substance to the handle hasn't the grip become bigger or did they cut down on the handle so it was the same thickness as a non cork bat.

If so then they are not the same specs

why buy a question?
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  #11  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:28 AM
Bill Rayburn Bill Rayburn is offline
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Default Cork handle bats

I don't want to enter the "game used" question, I will defer to Matt and Jim on that. As far as who was first, regardless of Patent Date, Spalding produced cork handle bats in the late 1800's as well as cord grip and some other interesting innovations.
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  #12  
Old 05-15-2012, 08:47 AM
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Troy Kinunen:

http://http://www.mearsonline.com/in...t01returnid=98
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  #13  
Old 05-15-2012, 09:24 AM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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Default Thank you

Thank you for relaying Troy's article -

http://www.mearsonline.com/index.php...t01returnid=98
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2012, 11:02 AM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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Store Model bats were made for the popular stars of the day. Every kid wanted one with the signature of their favorite player’s name looking up at them when they went to bat.

In almost every case, Mears is saying that the “records shows” that the 40K bats were made for the biggest players of the day with very few exceptions.

If I was a regular player back in the teens and 20’s and I saw Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Joe Jackson and on and on STAR players using Cork Gripped bats, what do you think I would want to use.

Professional ballplayers are only bigger versions of kids.

As such, there would be loads of 40K bats with both professional and minor league players’ names on them, not just the small group of stars.

But if my business was to sell bats? Well then whose name would I put on them? Not Smith and Jones


That’s just how thing work.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:18 PM
khkco4bls khkco4bls is offline
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Default 40k

any 40K ruths here to post.
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2012, 12:56 AM
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Thanks for the info. Definitely very informative.
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  #17  
Old 05-16-2012, 01:51 PM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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Default The procedure

From the aforementioned, it appears the same procedure is used for evaluating 40k and 125 model bats. With regard to the additional posted questions regarding game used bat evaluation in general - whether 40k or 125 or other model - the following is my understanding and my modus operandi:

First you determine if a 40k or 125 or other model is a professional model bat - does it have signs of being a store model bat - ie. inch marks, other signs of being a store model bat, etc.? If the bat does not have inch marks, other signs of being a store model bat, etc., then it is a professional model bat, perhaps made for the person whose signature appears on the bat, perhaps made for another major or minor leaguer or general team use.

Second, if you determine that what you have is a professional model bat, you then need to determine if such bat was actually made for the player whose signature appears on the barrel (because professional model bats bearing the signatures of the great players of the day were made for other major and minor leaguers and for general team use). So you determine if the bat is made to the specifications of that particular player, in the year or era in which the bat was made. In other words, in a given year/era, what bat length, weight, - and if applicable finish, knob style, etc. was the player whose signature appears, ordering - based on Louisville or other factory records - or if few or no such records exist, based on photos or other evidence.

Third, if you determine, based on the specifications of the professional model bat in front of you, that the bat was likely made for the actual player whose signature appears on the barrel, you then look to see if the bat was likely game used in general - and you also check for specific game use indicative of the player in question. Some hitters often positioned the brandings on the bat a particular way when they got up to bat, so the ball would more often than not make contact with the bat in a particular area. Some hitters scratched the surface of their bats - some wrote on their bats. Some put tar or tape or other materials on their bats.

Fourth, you then examine provenance to 'sure-up' or add or detract to what is factually in front of you.

Determining whether a bat was made for the player whose signature appears on the bat, and then determining whether such player used such bat in a game is really a determination of a percentage chance - at least for what I like to think of as the glass-negative era bunch - can think of as pre WWII - as you really need a photo, video, or writing by the player himself on the bat itself detailing use, for 100% certainty of use in a game, in my opinion (and a player detailing use is often not even 100% - as another post pointed out so well a few weeks ago).

That being said, if you have a
(i) a professional model bat
(ii) made to the player's specifications whose signature appears on the barrel, in that year/era in which the bat was made, and
(iii) there is game use
in my opinion, that is likely a game used bat by that player, and in the opinion of a good number I believe. If you have specific game used traits on the bat relating to that player, the percentage assuredness (is this a word?) goes up from there. But in my opinion, if you have the aforementioned three, that is pretty substantial evidence, particularly for the pre WWII and even perhaps pre-1980 players.

The above is my understanding and mode of operation; others may have different or additional ways of looking/reviewing.

Last edited by BigJJ; 05-16-2012 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:58 PM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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One question you have not address in your thesis is, In what year did Hillerich start putting inch marks on their store model bats?

Are all decal bats pre 1911 professional models or where they offered as store models also and if so did they have inch marks
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:05 PM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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I am cracking up, don't you think I have written enough today
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:25 PM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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Prior to 1911, I believe that similarly branded decal bats may have been made for both store and for professional use, and that the differentiation between the two (store versus professional model) stems not from inch marks as they were not on either, but if it can be discerned, from quality of wood, bat specifications, use, and at times, store markings on the bat. Happy to receive additional information regarding.

Last edited by BigJJ; 10-22-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:43 AM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
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I'm a little confused on how a bat can be called a Professional Model, but not also considered Game Used.

I guess if the bat was pristine, no marking whatsoever then that would be the case.

But if a bat has visual use on it. How can Mears or PSA say, yes its a Pro Model, but no it's not Game Used.

And how much of a value drop would the exact same bat (let's say Ruth for example) would there be between 2 of the exact same bats, but one that has game use attributed to it by Mears or PSA?
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:59 AM
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Others will chime in with more expertise than what I can tell you but its my understanding that a pro model was made to the players specs and a "game used" bat shows characteristics that can be attributed to that particular player.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:53 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
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What are examples of characteristics (long word)
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:29 PM
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Ken Griffey Jr.'s spiral tape, Sammy Sosa's fat-taped knob, Pujol's tar patterns, Derek Jeter NOT putting his number on the end are a few examples.

Also it can be as simple as ball marks on the lefthanded side, but a righthanded hitter.

Ken
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:58 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlywynnfan View Post
Ken Griffey Jr.'s spiral tape, Sammy Sosa's fat-taped knob, Pujol's tar patterns, Derek Jeter NOT putting his number on the end are a few examples.

Also it can be as simple as ball marks on the lefthanded side, but a righthanded hitter.

Ken
good info thanks.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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Does anyone know what happened to Jon Fuld? He's been missing for several months, doesn't reply to emails, phone calls, texts or nothing. And hasn't logged on since December 12th.
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  #27  
Old 02-06-2014, 04:58 PM
kengoldin kengoldin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks12025 View Post
Does anyone know what happened to Jon Fuld? He's been missing for several months, doesn't reply to emails, phone calls, texts or nothing. And hasn't logged on since December 12th.
Pm or email me if you reach him
I have been a unable to do so as well....
Ken@goldinauctions.com
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