T205 Wilhelm: "suffe ed" vs "suffered"

[TNP777]

Hello all,

I just picked up a Wilhelm "suffe ed" to complete my T205 Superbas set... or not. I know there is a regular version with the "r" intact. My question is two-fold:

* should I not worry about the regular "suffered" and call my team set good, or should I chase it down? (I realize this is a question with no real right or wrong answer)

or

* if I choose to chase it down, how much of a premium does the "suffered" version carry? In looking at the current and closed eBay auctions, almost all of them are "suffe ed", with only one with the full word, which is a rare Cycle back.

Opinions/thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Geordie

[bbcard1]

The thing about a collection is that you get to define the rules. I did a full T205 set but made it a front only set...am very happy with it. But it is completely up to you. And it's a pretty big premium.

First the cycle back premium is a wish. Cycles were ran in a massive quantity, and Wilhelm is found with multiple backs, and I would go out on record to say Pied 25, SC, PB, then cycles, Hassan (pending factory #), HLC and so on. Only a few cards in the set that are true SP's with 3 known backs, cycle being one, could command a Cycle premium. As much as I hadinvested in them it pains me to say that Cycles are commons

Second the reason the Suffered variation is scarce is because people bought them up and are holding them. Supply and demand. Unlike the Hobby name correct no cin variation that is the second scarecest of the 4. Yet people continue to pay more for the name incorrect variation that is quite common and should be about 1/2 what they sell for. It's all perception.

I think you would be fine at the point you are at. No real need to chace another card with the same player on it just for the back.

[TNP777]

Thanks for replies. I'm inclined to consider the set done. If a "suffered" version presents itself for the right price, I'll think about picking it up. If not, no biggie.

Here's my set in all it's ragged & raw glory!



If you have a spare moment or two, I've got a significant portion of my vintage Dodger collection scanned. Link is below in my sig.

Thanks for looking!

[atx840]

Nice subset, thanks for sharing.

[Brian Weisner]

Wilhelm Suffered only comes with two backs:
Hassan and Cycle... I'm sure Josh has a better pop report than I do, but I've only seen 2-3 with Cycle backs.....

Be well Brian

Originally Posted by Brian Weisner

Wilhelm Suffered only comes with two backs:
Hassan and Cycle... I'm sure Josh has a better pop report than I do, but I've only seen 2-3 with Cycle backs.....

Be well Brian

As an error though. Like the pb white no quotes. The Wilhelm is found with multiple backs. Guess its all in how you define it.

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

The thing about a collection is that you get to define the rules.

+1


Thank you for sharing. To answer your question about cost, you are looking between $800-$1100 for a beater. They don't come up that often.

Good luck.

r/
Frank

[Brian Weisner]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

First the cycle back premium is a wish. Cycles were ran in a massive quantity, and Wilhelm is found with multiple backs, and I would go out on record to say Pied 25, SC, PB, then cycles, Hassan (pending factory #), HLC and so on. Only a few cards in the set that are true SP's with 3 known backs, cycle being one, could command a Cycle premium. As much as I hadinvested in them it pains me to say that Cycles are commons

Second the reason the Suffered variation is scarce is because people bought them up and are holding them. Supply and demand. Unlike the Hobby name correct no cin variation that is the second scarecest of the 4. Yet people continue to pay more for the name incorrect variation that is quite common and should be about 1/2 what they sell for. It's all perception.

I think you would be fine at the point you are at. No real need to chace another card with the same player on it just for the back.

Hi Andrew,

Wilhelm Suffered is only found with Hassan and Cycle(rarely) backs
Wilhelm Suffe ed is found with Piedmont Fact 25 backs
Both cards are tough, but suffered is in a completely different league than suffe ed...

I haven't heard about anyone hoarding them, but anythings possible...

Be well Brian

[abrahamrudy]

t205.org will give you a rough estimate of what you can expect to pay for any particular front/back combination. not perfect, but it'll give you a good idea of what to expect if you look to pick it up. Personally, I don't like collecting printing variations. I just end up feeling like I have two of the same card.

[peterb69]

Call your Superbas subset complete as is.

The "suffered" variation is real scarce and will cost $$$.

I'm personally trying to collect a Master Set of T205's that includes every front. Then if there are multiple backs regardless of brand (meaning the Wilhelm, Mathewson with 1 loss, cards with various lines of stats, etc).
Also, at least 1 card from every brand/factory regardless of front. My set just needs 2 cards, the Hoblitzell no stats and the Wilhelm suffered. Both cards out of my price range.

[asoriano]

I agree with Mr. Weisner (hi Brian) on the scarcity of the Wilhelm "suffered" variation.

If memory serves me, the card wasn't cataloged as a variation until late 2007. It is very difficult to come by. I've only seen a couple on eBay in the past year or so, with Probstein's example being one of them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/T205-Irvin-K...item19c5c1b056

As mentioned, the Wilhelm "suffe ed" is much more common than the "suffered" variation.

"suffered" = Hassan and Cycle

"suffe ed" = Piedmont 25

-Turner Engle

P.S. My first Wilhelm "suffered" variation set me back about $1,500. Five creases and all. So yes, it probably won't come cheap!

[olrac44]

I picked up the Suffe ed version in a PSA 4.5 last night in SCP's auction for $515. I think I got it for a pretty good price since Goodwin sold a 5 for $2,670 back in March.

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Turner,
You have one of the sharpest T205 sets in the hobby.... And I don't believe you ever owned a card with a crease...
My best to your Dad... Be well Brian


PS Stop calling me "Sir"... I'm not that Old.... Hope to see you in Chicago this year....

[Wite3]

Brian nailed it...

Cycles are not commons but they are easier than they used to be just because there was a hoard that hit the market a few years back.

Suffered is tough. Very tough. Only seen 3-4 for sale this year (one actually changed hands twice this year). A beater can be had for between $750-$1250.

-Joshua

Geordie...consider it done

[Wite3]

BTW,
My back scarcity for the easier backs goes...(this may have changed since the last time I posted but as I said before finds and hoards change these all the time)

Piedmont 25
Polar Bear
Sweet Cap Red
Sweet Cap Black
Hassan
Honest Long Cut
Sovereign
Cycle

Then the toughies.

Josh I don't think cycles are scarer than the Sov or Hassan backs. I had tons of cycles at one time, many of them raw. I mean a lot of them. Looking at the Wilhelm I stand corrected, haven't made it that far in my list yet, that it is a true sp along with Joss, dahlen, grant and a few others. So the cycle counts on them are scarce at best and yea those cycles on the sp's should carry a large premium to the pied 25 and Hassan backs they have.

It's nice to have a 205 discussion going again

[TNP777]

Fair enough - if Joshua says it's done, then it's DONE!

Thanks again for all the replies and information, everyone. I learned a lot.

Now I need to figure which pre-war Superbas/Dodgers set I'm going to chase next.

[Tom S.]

Geordie, congrats on completing* your T205 Superbas set ...

Originally Posted by TNP777

Now I need to figure which pre-war Superbas/Dodgers set I'm going to chase next.

How about starting a '34 Goudey or '14/'15 Cracker Jack set next?

[Wite3]

Andrew...

I know you had a lot and the numbers are close but Cycle is just a bit rarer. When I look at my notes, sales, and my collection...Cycle comes up about 5% rarer than Sover. Of course, these numbers all have a margin of error and another cycle horde might be found and push the numbers again. Who knows?

Joshua