Perhaps the most unethical thing I've seen in our hobby. Topps should be ashamed

[the 'stache]

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...ate-questions/

This is not a story dealing with pre-war cards directly, but I thought some of you would get a kick out of reading about how unethical Topps, who pretty much has a monopoly on baseball cards right now, has become. And we might see some new members here, as modern collectors, tired of these games, look for collecting alternatives.

Each year, one of Topps' biggest products is the Bowman Chrome line. The cards that make up the completed set are broken up into three different releases-Bowman, Bowman Chrome, and Bowman Draft Picks & Prospects. Bowman Baseball comes in the spring, and each pack contains 2 Bowman Chrome cards. The first cards of the year. The Chrome line comes out in September, and Draft Picks & Prospects in late November. Each product includes what is typically an up and coming minor league star's first autographed baseball cards. When I came back to the hobby a few years ago, I started out by collecting modern cards, and Bowman Chrome prospect autos are what I collected. I've always loved baseball, but minor league baseball seems to have a lot of the things the big leagues used to have. Sure, a lot of the players you see will probably end up in the Major Leagues, but you can still talk to the players here without security guards beating you into a pulp. And taking your family to a minor league game won't break you financially.

Anyhow, it's fun watching players come out of high school, or college, being drafted. Following players as they work their way through the minor leagues, and finally realizing their dreams, is like nothing else. In the NFL, and the NBA, when a team picks a player, they're on the big league team. They may not start right away, but they go through training camp, and the top picks are virtually assured of playing. Not so in baseball. It's a lot of work. A lot of traveling. And many of these guys aren't making a lot of money. But they are chasing their dream. And as an added benefit, if you're a collector, and you are paying attention, you can buy cards like this one for $95 when it comes out:


Mike Trout's 2009 Bowman Chrome prospect auto.

So, for the last year or so, one of the Chicago Cubs prospects, Kris Bryant, has been absolutely destroying the baseball, first at AA, then at AAA. In 492 at bats this year, Bryant hit .325 with 43 home runs and 110 RBI. He ended the season with a 1.098 OPS. He's an exciting player, and long suffering Cubs fans finally have something to look forward to. The Cubs have several of the top 20 prospects in the game, and Bryant is leading the charge. And Chrome prospect collectors were told that his first Chrome auto would be released as part of 2014 Bowman Chrome. And, as advertised, the cards came out right on schedule. Hobby boxes and cases flew off the shelves as fast as suppliers could get them in. And the Kris Bryant cards were going nuts on eBay. I mean, the prices were ridiculous. I think they were going for over $1,000 at one point. This for a guy that had never played a game in the Major Leagues. Mike Trout's 2009 Bowman Chrome, which I posted a picture of above (that's mine), has been humming along at about $1,200-1,400 for a graded Beckett 9.5. Mine, ungraded, would fetch about $850 to $900 last time I checked, if not a little more. Centering carries a premium, and that one is centered perfectly. But the Bryant prices were something I'd never seen before.

Topps continued to pump out the cards. The smart collectors waited for the product to come out, and instead of buying cases of the stuff, they just bought the cards they wanted. That's how I've built my collection. But after a while, box and case sales slowed. Topps did very well. Very well. Collectors prepared for upcoming releases.

And then, a funny thing happened. Whether or not it was announced before it happened, I do not remember. But in other Topps products (Bowman Platinum 2014, if I recall correctly), suddenly, Kris Bryant Bowman Chrome 2013 prospect cards started showing up. First of all, Topps had never put Chrome cards in other products. Only Bowman, Chrome, and DP&P.

But as I mentioned, these were not 2014 cards. These were 2013 cards. Those 2014 Bowman Chrome cards, which had the label "1st Bowman Chrome card", were now no longer the first card of Bryant's, technically speaking. And the autographed 2014 cards, the card that drove demand, and saw prices jump over $1,000 a pop...for just the base (unnumbered) cards....when the 2013 cards hit the market, the 2014 cards were no longer as valuable. In fact, their values plummeted. And these 2013 Bowman Chrome cards skyrocketed in value. I don't know how high they got, but you can imagine what happened.

Call it unethical. Call it dirty business. Call it whatever you want. It's flat wrong. And these 2013 cards weren't short printed. There weren't just 100 of these. It looks like Topps did a normal print run. Now, the Platinum line, which is considered a lesser product compared to the Chrome, is selling like hot cakes, as people are looking for the 2013 cards.


Kris Bryant's 2013 Bowman Chrome auto (left) was released after his 2014 Bowman Chrome auto (right). Makes sense, right?
Oh, and what a lovely signature he has. Do you get "Kris Bryant" from that?

I don't want to get into a discussion about the absurdity of the card prices. We all know when Bryant reaches the Majors, his cards will plummet in value, and then they'll go back up depending on how he does. Some people just have to be the first ones to have the card, I guess. I would rather take $1,000, and buy a T205 Christy Mathewson. But Topps, who essentially has a monopoly on baseball cards because they have exclusive licensing with MLB Properties until 2020, basically runs unchallenged. Panini and Upper Deck release cards every year with generic looking uniforms. They sell, but Topps is the king of the modern hobby. We're back in the 1970s again, only there are a hundred products every year, and 95% of them suck. Topps does a T206 set, a T3 Turkey Red set, Allen & Ginter, etc. It's sickening. They don't care. They make money, and I'd wager that most people have no idea where those sets originated.

How does this affect us? I would not be at all surprised to see some people get sick of these games Topps has been playing. Inevitably, some of them are going to make their way here.

How do you like this, guys? Just what our hobby needs, right?

[DaClyde]

Looks like Topps has now authorized themselves to retroactively produce whatever cards they want.

Maybe now I can get that missing 1989 Bowman Hensley Meulens auto...I wonder what product it will be packed with? 2016 Topps Opening Day?

[Centauri]

I feel your pain, but I gave up in 1994 when the he number of sets spun out of control, and I still can't make heads or tails of them.

I am here because they can't mass print more T205's to meet (and surpass) demand.

[the 'stache]

Jason, I saw Bam Bam is currently the hitting coach for the Giants. I wouldn't put it past Topps to do one of those buyback autos they've so famously started printing up. Or is that Leaf? I forget. So many products now.

Ben, you were smart. I gave up trying to keep them all straight, and focused on one release.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

We don't know all the details to say it's unethical so that's unfair. Maybe Bryant signed his contract late, which caused them to scramble to print xxx amount of the '13 chrome but missed the release deadline and weren't able to insert them into the 2013 packs, but figured collectors would still want this card so it was inserted into the 2014 packs.

Who knows, that's my thought and this is def not the first time this has happened with companies scrambling to get a release of a hot top prospect. Look at Hosmer and Lawrie a few years ago, those 2011 chrome autos were BARELY made and inserted into packs because Hosmer wasn't expected to be called up til expanded rosters but he killed it at AAA and they needed to rush quick because collectors were calling for it.


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[packs]

I'd have to go back and look but sometimes if you're part of a special team, like Team USA or something like that your first "card" is not necessarily considered your first "card".

For example I have a Jesse Winker Team USA auto RC /25 but technically it's not Winker's first Bowman card because it's from when he was an amateur.

[chipperhank44]

Complete slap in the face to place the "first bowman card" logo on the 2014 before releasing the 2013 autos. They could have at least left the "first bowman card" logo off of the 2014 autos and given collectors a clue that something special was going to happen. Instead they slapped the logo on the 2014 knowing full well what their plans were for the 2013 cards. They could have at least made them 2014 "Throwback" autos or something to keep from predating their supposed first issue....

Sad part is, it doesn't even matter. The prospecting sheep will flock to whatever they are told to flock to. I know because I was one....

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by packs

I'd have to go back and look but sometimes if you're part of a special team, like Team USA or something like that your first "card" is not necessarily considered your first "card".

For example I have a Jesse Winker Team USA auto RC /25 but technically it's not Winker's first Bowman card because it's from when he was an amateur.

Winker's 2011 Bowman Chrome USA Auto bears the "first bowman card" moniker

[packs]

Ah, that's why I said I'd need to take a look. Disregard my theory.

Very strange thing to do.

PS here's to hoping Winker becomes a Bryant so I can get paid too!

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by packs

Ah, that's why I said I'd need to take a look. Disregard my theory.



Very strange thing to do.



PS here's to hoping Winker becomes a Bryant so I can get paid too!

Met him in the minors on a few occasions, big fan of how he presents himself.


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[packs]

I've got high hopes for him. Sweet swing just hope his injury doesn't slow him down.

When I bought the box I was thoroughly annoyed that I pulled a Cutter Dykstra auto in the very first pack I opened. Then in my last pack I pulled Winker's Team USA card /25 and forgot all about that crappy Dykstra.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by packs

I've got high hopes for him. Sweet swing just hope his injury doesn't slow him down.



When I bought the box I was thoroughly annoyed that I pulled a Cutter Dykstra auto in the very first pack I opened. Then in my last pack I pulled Winker's Team USA card /25 and forgot all about that crappy Dykstra.

That's awesome! Yeah he's young and should project a little less power and speed than Joc


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[h2oya311]

Admittedly, I got completely lost after the words "Bowman Chrome"...

Unethical, yes, but "most unethical" in our hobby, I think not.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Unethical, yes, but "most unethical" in our hobby, I think not.

if only!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

I've got high hopes for him. Sweet swing just hope his injury doesn't slow him down.

When I bought the box I was thoroughly annoyed that I pulled a Cutter Dykstra auto in the very first pack I opened. Then in my last pack I pulled Winker's Team USA card /25 and forgot all about that crappy Dykstra.

Why do you hurt me?

Your Cutter Dykstra recollection is bringing back bad memories of my own.

My first box of Bowman Chrome was the 2010 series. The auto I pulled? A Jhan Marinez refractor auto.

Hmm. Strike one.

So, a little later when the 2011 Chrome came out, I bought two boxes. Autos? A Cutter Dykstra refractor auto, and a Bradley Holt base auto.



Strike two and three. And...you're buying individual autos now.

But wait, you might be thinking. Surely I pulled a nice refractor card in those three boxes, right? Why, yes, I pulled a gold refractor Tops 100 from the 2010 box. Can't miss prospect. Book value at the time $50!

Woo hoo. At least I had that, right...?



/face palm. Not so much.

I don't know how I could have done any worse. But hey, $225 bucks spent, lesson learned.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Admittedly, I got completely lost after the words "Bowman Chrome"...

Unethical, yes, but "most unethical" in our hobby, I think not.

As far as the big card companies are concerned, I did miss a few decades, but what have they ever done where they deliberately misled the consumer like this? That's about as bad as it gets.

[packs]

Dang those are some rough hits. When 2006 Bowman Chrome Draft came out I must have spent like $125 on a box right after it was released hoping for the Longoria. I scored a Cody Johnson. Looked him up and saw he was a first round pick. Not bad right?

Well...Cody Johnson spent most of 2013 hitting a robust .229 in independent league baseball before getting the boot from the Atlantic League.

To be honest I haven't ever gotten the "hit" in any modern box. But I still like to gamble every now and then. Best pull I ever had was Jon Lester's rookie auto but then I sold it not long after his diagnosis. Would like that one back.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by packs

To be honest I haven't ever gotten the "hit" in any modern box.

My best was a Joe D bat card when I was like 14 or so, then was so turned off my never getting anything in boxes I stopped buying them.



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[the 'stache]

Ya, they were pretty rough. Cutter Dykstra's two claims to fame are going to be his daddy going to jail, and dating Meadow Soprano. You don't want your two claims to fame being things other people did. In his seventh year in the minors, he made it to AA finally, where he rocked a fat .740 OPS. But you know that AA money supports a baby mama well, right?

I always wondered when she would dump him, but he knocked her up, and they have a kid now. I guess that Sopranos money is pretty fat. She can afford to be with a career minor league scrub. But Beau Kyle Dykstra will be making more than his daddy soon.

Edit: Wow, she dated Mark Sanchez, formerly of the Jets, before Dykstra. She has a thing for horrible athletes, it seems. Hey Meadow, I played some Park Rec baseball when I was 15.

[Rich Klein]

Who in the heck is Meadow Soprano and are her photos safe for work?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

As far as the big card companies are concerned, I did miss a few decades, but what have they ever done where they deliberately misled the consumer like this? That's about as bad as it gets.

I would have to say this is not even in the top 10 worst things Topps has done.

Topps test Super Refractor sheets leaving by the truck load. Although Beckett giving # grades to handcut cards that are from those sheets is also pretty slimy.

Accidently releasing more than 1 1/1 card, this happens fairly regular.

Topps not serial #ing cards so they can release more that stated.

Topps not honoring redemptions because the person never signed the cards.

Seriously this list could go on and on. Plus anybody paying more than $20 for a card from a new product get what they deserve. When you can buy a nice Mickey Mantle card for less than a guy that has never played a Major League game you know someone is getting it without the aid of Vaseline.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Who in the heck is Meadow Soprano and are her photos safe for work?

Jamie Lynn Sigler played Meadow Soprano on the Sopranos.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I would have to say this is not even in the top 10 worst things Topps has done.

Topps test Super Refractor sheets leaving by the truck load. Although Beckett giving # grades to handcut cards that are from those sheets is also pretty slimy.

Accidently releasing more than 1 1/1 card, this happens fairly regular.

Topps not serial #ing cards so they can release more that stated.

Topps not honoring redemptions because the person never signed the cards.

Seriously this list could go on and on. Plus anybody paying more than $20 for a card from a new product get what they deserve. When you can buy a nice Mickey Mantle card for less than a guy that has never played a Major League game you know someone is getting it without the aid of Vaseline.

I agree that the redemptions not being honored really stinks, but they are supposed to substitute with a card of equal value. Not that it matters, because you might have bought the redemption for a certain player. And you should get that player. I don't know if that's unethical, though. Bad business practice? Yes. Unethical. Maybe. They shouldn't release a player as being part of a set unless they guarantee to sign.

Ya, I guess that is unethical now that I think of it. But I don't think it's as bad as knowingly pushing the 2014 Chrome cards when you have 2013 cards waiting in the wings that will completely destroy the value of the 2014 cards. That's theft, imo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Who in the heck is Meadow Soprano and are her photos safe for work?

I guess if you do baseball cards 24/7/365 you miss out on even the best-known cultural phenomena like the Sopranos.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"He knocked her up..."

Who on earth talks like this in this day and age??

[Section103]

I wont necessarily get into details, but anyone who is buying cards from packs and expects those packs to be fairly, equally, and randomly distributed should give pause to think. I can not speak for every card company, but I can speak of one certain company which specifically did NOT distribute 2007 NFL Rookie auto cards (numbered to 10) in a fair manner. You can believe me or not. Im just here to warn you.

[hangman62]

its pretty bad if you care about newer stuff

Im glad I don't collect anything newer then 70s

[Rich Klein]

Looks like all photos safe for work -- and I should have said who or what is a Meadow Soprano. Sounded like a porn star to me

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"He knocked her up..."

Who on earth talks like this in this day and age??

It just popped into my head. Sorry, Peter. By the way, I also will break out the occasional "groovy", and I have been known to say "fosro-far out, solid and right on", though I realize neither of those are offensive.

Originally Posted by Section103

I wont necessarily get into details, but anyone who is buying cards from packs and expects those packs to be fairly, equally, and randomly distributed should give pause to think. I can not speak for every card company, but I can speak of one certain company which specifically did NOT distribute 2007 NFL Rookie auto cards (numbered to 10) in a fair manner. You can believe me or not. Im just here to warn you.

Rich, after those three boxes, I wised up fast. I had nothing at all against breaking a box once in a while, purely for the fun factor (bringing back memories from my childhood). But in order to put together the collection I wanted, I started buying the cards individually. And I was rather successful. I subscribed to Baseball America, MLB.tv, Milb.com...I scouted minor league players, did spreadsheets ranking the prospects based off of Baseball America, MLB.com, and a site called Baseball Prospect Nation. And I watched a lot of film, when it was available. There are some guys I've been pretty high on before they became the flavor of the month-Joc Pederson of the Dodgers and George Springer of the Astros were top 100 prospects, so I didn't pull them out of mid air, but out of those prospects, I really liked their upside more than most. These are two guys with impressive power-speed combinations. Their athleticism should make them both 30-30 players in the Majors, and soon. Springer by 2016, and Pederson possibly a year after that. It depends on when the Dodgers finally bring him up. They'd be nuts to trade him. He's blocked in the Majors right now, but they need to make room. If Kemp will rework his contract, keep him. Otherwise find a way to move him, and eat most of his contract if you have to. Joc Pederson's ceiling is high.

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Looks like all photos safe for work -- and I should have said who or what is a Meadow Soprano. Sounded like a porn star to me

Ya, I'm sorry, Rich. I should have been more clear. I can see how that would give some people room for cause.

[mark evans]

Just another reason to eschew new product. Card collecting has gone downhill, in my view, ever since it became infeasible to collect complete sets.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"He knocked her up..."

Who on earth talks like this in this day and age??

Probably nobody in your social circle, but I know this vernacular works with Kim Kardashian/Lenny Dykstra crowd.

[Jayworld]

Originally Posted by mark evans

Just another reason to eschew new product. Card collecting has gone downhill, in my view, ever since it became infeasible to collect complete sets.

+1 on this. Being a former set builder (complete sets 1975-82) outside the pre-war realm, I quickly realized when I got back into the hobby about 2001 or so that I could no longer affordably put together a new/current set of baseball cards. That was a bummer and redefined the way I approached the hobby.

[jhs5120]

Okay, so I'm a little slow and this is very complicated.

If I understand this, Topps created 2013 Kris Bryant cards and added them to 2014 cases. The 2013 cards are now (of course) considered his rookie which bring down the value of the 2014 cards.

I mean, I wouldn't consider it unethical just lack of foresight. I'm sure Topps thought it would be cool to add a top prospect to a set that he was previously excluded from. I doubt they considered the impact the release would have on the 2014 cards.

[steve B]

Except that there are a bunch of actual 2013 cards - Rize, Leaf, a bunch of other Panini sets, diamond prospects, Bowman Draft..........

I looked at a couple of the Bowmans on Ebay, and I'm puzzled how Topps put a 2013 copyright notice on a 2014 card. Makes me wonder if they actually registered a copyright for it.

I get how it's not at all good for Topps to start up the "time machine", but I also think it's pretty silly for anyone to consider a card issued in a 2014 product to be a 2013 card just because the manufacturer put that date on it and used last years design. Even sillier for them to pay a huge premium for it.

Even sillier for anyone to consider either as his "rookie" card when he still hasn't played a game in the majors. If it is, then the actual 2013 issues that had a mix of current players and prospects should have more claim to it. Like maybe Bowman Sterling.



Steve B

[irishdenny]

Some where iN All of this...
iS a Class Action Law Suite Just Waiting to HaPPeN ~

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Okay, so I'm a little slow and this is very complicated.

If I understand this, Topps created 2013 Kris Bryant cards and added them to 2014 cases. The 2013 cards are now (of course) considered his rookie which bring down the value of the 2014 cards.

I mean, I wouldn't consider it unethical just lack of foresight. I'm sure Topps thought it would be cool to add a top prospect to a set that he was previously excluded from. I doubt they considered the impact the release would have on the 2014 cards.

Jason, let me try to explain this better. This was not a lack of foresight. Topps plans out what players will be released well in advance of the product coming out.

2013 Bowman Chrome had its complete run. The last leg of the Bowman Baseball/Bowman Chrome/Bowman Draft Picks & Prospects hit the stores in the first week of December 2013. All the players in the 3 releases had been announced. The complete checklist was known. Everybody knew exactly what autos were released in each set.

Jump forward to the spring of 2014. Topps announces that Bowman Baseball 2014, which would be released on April 30th, 2014, would not only include Jose Abreu's first Bowman baseball card (and a Bowman Chrome card, and a Bowman Chrome prospect auto), but Kris Bryant would also see the debut
his debut in Bowman Baseball. And he, too, would have a Chrome and a Chrome prospect auto. So, Bowman Baseball, which is always a hot product, but can be even hotter depending on who signs, became the product to buy in 2014. Bryant is a mega prospect on the Bryce Harper/Mike Trout scale. Abreu is the best player to ever come out of Cuba. People pre-ordered boxes and cases, and when April 30th hit, the product was bought at record levels. For whatever reason, the rumor began that Bryant's Chrome prospect auto would be short printed. Because of that factor, the price for the cards that were found reached astronomical prices. Base Chrome autos (unserialized cards) were going for over $1,000 each. The product went like nuts. Well, Bowman Chrome made its debut in September, and it, too, would include the Bryant 2014 Bowman Chrome auto card, the same one that came out in 2014 Bowman. So, people were learning that the card was not short printed. A lot of people ended up overpaying because of a perceived scarcity. I don't know if Topps started the rumor, but they certainly wouldn't lose out if they leaked it was short printed. It would drive more demand for their product. So anyway, Bowman Chromes sold. Boxes and cases. Topps made a small fortune. More Kris Bryant Chrome prospect auto cards were had. But then a funny thing happened. One of Topps' other Bowman product lines, Bowman Platinum, came out. And somebody who opened a box pulled out a Kris Bryant Bowman Chrome prospect auto. But this was not a 2014 card. This was not the card that came out in April, and then in September. This was a card that had the same design as 2013 Bowman Chrome. 2013 Bowman Chrome last came out in September of 2013. This was November of 2014. So, all the people who had bought case after case, box after box of 2014 Bowman Baseball, and 2014 Bowman Chrome baseball, in order to get Kris Bryant's first Bowman Chrome prospect auto...with the appearance of 2013 Bowman Chrome Kris Bryant autos, all those people no longer had his first prospect auto. They now had a Kris Bryant Bowman Chrome auto, which still carried value. But it had now been kicked down the road. Now, his 2013 Bowman Chrome prospect auto was his very best card. And if Bryant became a Hall of Famer 23 years from now, the card that will command the most money will not be the 2014 Bowman Chrome prospect auto card that is marked as his 1st Bowman Chrome card, the card that everybody thought was his first prospect auto card. The 2013 Bowman Chrome prospect auto card will be the most valuable.

Topps knowingly had Bryant sign 2013 Bowman Chrome cards AND 2014 Bowman Chrome cards. They released 2014 Bowman/Bowman Chrome with his auto cards just as they said they would. Then, after those had sold like crazy, and made Topps a fortune, they started putting his 2013 Chrome autos in other 2014 Bowman products to drive their sales, and in doing so, they said "sorry, all you guys that spent tens of thousands of dollars to get those rare 2014 cards. They're still valuable, as they have his auto, but they're not "the card". And all those people that bought his 2014 cards, and the boxes and cases of boxes to acquire one of those rare autographed prospect cards, they were sold product under false pretenses. And this wasn't something unforeseen. Topps knew exactly what they were doing.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Call it unethical. Call it dirty business. Call it whatever you want. It's flat wrong. And these 2013 cards weren't short printed. There weren't just 100 of these. It looks like Topps did a normal print run. Now, the Platinum line, which is considered a lesser product compared to the Chrome, is selling like hot cakes, as people are looking for the 2013 cards.

Topps only cares about one thing, selling product. Speculators (not collectors) are 99% of their business, and the gamblers purchasing new packs of cards have short memories because they are likely to sell that card as soon as it gets hot.

[Rich Klein]

Dan:

That depends on which product. I guarantee you for issues such as Opening Day, and Basic Topps Series 1, 2 and Update and even Heritage it is not for speculators but for everyday collectors

Now issues such as Triple Threads or that ilk, yes those are for speculators to a large extent. Bowman and Bowman CHrome are more towards a mix.

Can't always put everything in the same sphere

[sbfinley]

Nothing against you Bill, but I have to disagree. I don't understand how some people are upset Topps inserted chrome autos of a player that were selling for $400-$500 upon release (and $200-$250 still) in product that almost always would yield $30 in resale value.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Was it on the 2013 checklist?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Buying expensive boxes of cards with an extremely low chance of getting a particular chase card is just dumb anyhow.

[packs]

You could say that about any type of gambling until you win.

[VoodooChild]

Hey Bill,

Maybe I am looking at it wrong, but I am just not seeing what you are seeing as far as prices between the two cards. If I was going to buy Bryant's chrome auto, I would buy a non-graded #'d/500 refractor. When I search ebay sold cards for those, I see that his 2014 (1st chrome card logo) has been selling for $400-$450 while the other "2013" one without the logo has been selling for $300-$350. Also, most of the ebay listings for the 2013 card state "2013 Bowman Chrome Kris Bryant Refractor Auto #'d/500 ***From 2014 Bowman Chrome***"

Now I do agree that releasing that "2013" card is shady especially with a 2013 copyright date, but I believe that most of the speculators realize what happened and his 2014 1st Bowman Chrome card will end up being the one to own.

All that being said, I'm so glad I joined this forum and decided to quit the wasting time and money on the shiny stuff!

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And if Bryant became a Hall of Famer 23 years from now, the card that will command the most money will not be the 2014 Bowman Chrome prospect auto card that is marked as his 1st Bowman Chrome card, the card that everybody thought was his first prospect auto card. The 2013 Bowman Chrome prospect auto card will be the most valuable.

That's a huge if and unequally the biggest reason some collectors are mad. Chrome is king and undoubtedly the two biggest cards of the past 20 years are the Pujols and Trout Chrome Autos. One is at almost $3k and the other is at $1000-$1200 and climbing. The huge caveat, though, is that those are both two players who were (or currently are) considered the best in the game. Yeah, if Kris Bryant has an amazing career and goes down as one of the all-time greats the fact he has two Bowman Chrome AU Rc's that aren't SP'd could dilute the prices somewhat, but odds are even if he only had a Sp'd 2014 Bowman Chrome Auto in 5-10 year it would still be only worth a percentage of the current market value. Right now Bowman Chrome Autos of Austin Meadows, Miguel Sano, Byron Buxton, Carlos Correa, Javier Beaz, and Albert Almora go anywhere from $50-$150 for base Chrome autos. (60% of the people who read this will say "who?") For reference you can also get these bowman Chrome Autos in the same price range and sometimes cheaper: David Price, Stephen Strasburg, Madison Bumgarner, Buster Posey, Felix Hernandez, Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Sonny Gray (around $20), Jose Abreu, Mike Stanton, Josh Donaldson, and a host of other All-Stars. Three years ago the Bryce Harper Bowman Chrome Base AU was a $500-$700 card, now it's $175. Heck, Toe Nash was $300 at one point. To me this argument is just invalid.

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

Was it on the 2013 checklist?

No.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Buying expensive boxes of cards with an extremely low chance of getting a particular chase card is just dumb anyhow.

Whole lot of idiots at Net54 then.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=194058

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

You could say that about any type of gambling until you win.

This is worse. It's not only an irrational expenditure of money to try to get the chase card, but the chase card itself is a completely speculative gamble because as we know many if not most super prospects don't work out. It's basically just an entertainment expense.

[packs]

Perhaps. Although if I pulled the Bryant card I'd be selling right away. To hell with future value I can get paid today.

[the 'stache]

Whatever the eventual value of these cards might be, it boils down to this. A lot of people bought the 2014 Bowman Chrome autograph card of Kris Bryant, or the product containing the 2014 Bowman Chrome autographed card to get that card, thinking that they would own the very best card that Bryant has. Chrome is the undisputed king of the hill when it comes to modern baseball cards. The chrome cards themselves are more valuable than just a regular card. And while a lot of the other rookie cards for a player are sticker autos, the Chrome cards are on card. When they acquired that card, they knew they had the best. If the guy is a Hall of Famer, or a perennial All Star, or even if he's just a great player, that was going to be the card to own. If a person decided to super collect Bryant, that was the best card to own.

Then, Topps basically flipped the bird at everybody, and released a 2013 Bowman Chrome auto card in their 2014 non Chrome products. Why? Not because anybody at Topps "thought it would be neat" to release a card that wasn't originally in the 2013 set. They did it knowing that the 2013 card would immediately usurp the 2014 Chrome card's position as "king of the hill". All the hype that drove the 2014 card achieved the objective that Topps hoped it would. Now, they were going back to the same well, using Bryant's Chrome card to push the sales of these other products that typically do not have the same demand. They knew those boxes would sell like mad. And look at what has happened to the value of those 2014 Bowman Chrome auto cards.

June 30th, a BGS 9.5/10 sold for $1,000. That's a 2014 Bowman Chrome base auto (no serial number) of Kris Bryant, graded a 9.5 with a 10 auto by Beckett.

On June 27th, Bowman Inception, yet another one of the Bowman lines released annually by Topps, included the first 2013 Bowman Chrome Kris Bryant base auto. Just over a month later, where are the prices on these cards?

Well, not a month later, but a little over 5 weeks later (closest I can get by eBay's history), that BGS 9.5/10 2014 Bowman Chrome Kris Bryant base auto that sold for $1,000 is now selling for $428.00.

A card that was selling for $1,000.00 before the release of the 2013 card that wasn't supposed to exist, just 40 days later, is now going for $428.00.

The person that bought that card for $1,000 just saw the value of his card drop by 57.2% in 40 days, not because of decreased demand (people collecting Bryant, or Cubs prospects, or trying to complete the set still want it), not because Bryant had been injured, or had started playing like crap. The only reason this card dropped nearly 60% in value in just over a month is because of Topps.

That is just wrong. Period.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

A 57% decrease in price sounds a demand issue to me.

[sayhey24]

Here's what I don't understand (and trust me there is a lot I don't understand about collecting this new shiny stuff). Isn't the 2014 Bryant card still his first card? You say collectors want the player's first card -- how is the 2014 card not his first card? Just because another card is released later with an earlier date on it doesn't change the fact that the 2014 card is his first card.

If suddenly right now a Mike Trout chrome card was issued with an earlier date than his first chrome card, would that become his first chrome card? Of course not.

What am I missing here?

Greg

[EvilKing00]

So the 2014's came out in 2014, then the 2013 Bryant came out in 2014 as well?

Does the 2013 Bryant have a date on it?