Arod Ties Gehrig

[drc]

Players like ARod took steroids to inflate their numbers. It only stands to reason that their numbers should thus be viewed as inflated.

I do, however, think directly comparing many batting statistics from 2012 and 1936 to be an exercise in dubiousness. I mean, does anyone seriously think Cy Young got 511 wins and Nap Lajoie batted .426 playing today's game?

[Vegas-guy]

This thread makes laugh!! All you "haters"!!! did some people use "performance enhancing drugs" YES! Is it wrong YES! now that being said the players still have to be talented! Could they have done it without? Who knows??? And sure there are a great many players that did it all by the book. BUT how many of the other players (pre record keeping the way it is now) cheated in some way??? How is it so different from a pitcher scuffing, spitting or tampering with the ball? We all know it happened, and what about all the thing we dont know! Now maybe that's not a drug but it's still a way of trying to get an edge!

They were all part of a time in history and new things will happen in the future, take it for what it is and relax! Just enjoy the game..

Just my .02 cents..

[drc]

I disclose that I dislike both ARod and the Yankees. However, I would have similar sentiments for any player who used steroids . . . Unless the player was on my team. But that's a given. Those home runs ARod hit for the Mariners? Those were on the up and up. It was Arlington that made him turn bad.

(For those who don't realize, I live in Seattle. My jokes require context.)

[HRBAKER]

He cheated, he lied about it and he hit 23 grand slams. Good for him.
Nobody is saying he's not talented. It was he who must have thought he wasn't talented enough.

Oh I forgot, as we learned earlier in the thread, ALL of the pitchers were using too.

[packs]

There was a cool PED article in the last Sports Illustrated. It followed 4 players drafted into the same system (Twins) one of which used PEDs. Three of the four topped out at Triple A. One of the four had a 4 year major league career and was on a World Series championship team.

[FrankWakefield]

An Epiphany about performance enhancing drugs and modern baseball; I don't know why this didn't occur to me a few years ago. Here's what will eventually happen.

The pitchers and position players from the ARod, Bonds, Clemons, McGuire, Sosa, Giambi (I'll stop there, but obviously we could all add to that list) era, none of them will get into the Hall in the near future. We fans, and the sportswriters, are still a bit sore about the whole thing. The sportswriters will not vote for them because the 4th estate deems themselves competent to mete out punishment (fools that they are). But eventually, with the passage of about 2 more decades, a movement will start. It will say that the Hall is incomplete, for they've overlooked those good stars that played the game at the beginning of the 21st century. Good players, overlooked and left out. The movement will say that the pitchers who used PED's were having to pitch to players using PED's, and conversely, and so their statistics are a wash. It's not like only pitchers got to use PED's, or only batters got to use PED's. So the stats stand... besides, some of what was used was legal at the time. So in fairness to all, and to have the Hall be complete, they'll put some of those guys in. A few of us will be gone then, some won't have wits enough to realize its happened, a few won't care, and a few will write a letter to someone (if they still have letters then), or tweet or email or something. But it won't matter. They'll all be in the Hall, except for maybe Roger, because of his trial...

[7nohitter]

Lou Gehrig, were he alive today, would slap the piss out of A-Fraud and denounce him as a Yankee.

[FrankWakefield]

No, Andrew. Mr. Gehrig would quietly shed a tear in private. He was a gentleman, he'd not confront ARod publicly.

[barrysloate]

Gaylord Perry cheated his whole career and he's in the Hall of Fame.

[Splinte1941]

Fortunately for Gehrig, his record will stand in the eyes of common sense and fairness, and reality. He didn't need to take PED's to hit any of his 23 grand slams.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Gaylord Perry cheated his whole career and he's in the Hall of Fame.

Jose Canseco blurted out recently that there is a Hall Of Famer that he played with that was juiced.
Rickey maybe?

[triwak]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

An Epiphany about performance enhancing drugs and modern baseball; I don't know why this didn't occur to me a few years ago. Here's what will eventually happen.

The pitchers and position players from the ARod, Bonds, Clemons, McGuire, Sosa, Giambi (I'll stop there, but obviously we could all add to that list) era, none of them will get into the Hall in the near future. We fans, and the sportswriters, are still a bit sore about the whole thing. The sportswriters will not vote for them because the 4th estate deems themselves competent to mete out punishment (fools that they are). But eventually, with the passage of about 2 more decades, a movement will start. It will say that the Hall is incomplete, for they've overlooked those good stars that played the game at the beginning of the 21st century. Good players, overlooked and left out. The movement will say that the pitchers who used PED's were having to pitch to players using PED's, and conversely, and so their statistics are a wash. It's not like only pitchers got to use PED's, or only batters got to use PED's. So the stats stand... besides, some of what was used was legal at the time. So in fairness to all, and to have the Hall be complete, they'll put some of those guys in. A few of us will be gone then, some won't have wits enough to realize its happened, a few won't care, and a few will write a letter to someone (if they still have letters then), or tweet or email or something. But it won't matter. They'll all be in the Hall, except for maybe Roger, because of his trial...

My prediction, as well. Well said.

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

No, Andrew. Mr. Gehrig would quietly shed a tear in private. He was a gentleman, he'd not confront ARod publicly.

Yup, you're correct, Frank. I guess it's everyone else who wants to slap the piss out of A-fraud.

[steve B]

I'm not a fan of Arod, and also figured Manny would get to 23 Grand slams, before he completely fell apart.

But placing all the credit with PEDs does a bit disservice to the guys who were on base ahead of him. They were part of it too. (And will probably get no credit either except on some SABR guys file of interesting stuff.)

A few things get overlooked in the PED discussions.

Juiced pitcher facing juiced batter isn't a wash. The physics say different. More total energy=more distance.

Much of the blame also must be placed with MLB and the comissioners office. At the time many of the players were doing PEDs it wasn't actually against the rules. And Baseball itself didn't have the guts to change it until things got cartoonish. (can we keep Popeye out of the comics HOF? sorry, couldn't resist) So while the use may have been illegal, it wasn't technically cheating. Wrong on many levels, but not against the rules.

Steve B
Contemplating where the home run record would be with Dave Kingman playing in Fenway or Playing in Fenway and on something......100? more?

[HRBAKER]

It's funny how if it wasn't cheating no one would cop to it.

[steve B]

They wouldn't, because even if it was technically within the rules it was often if not always illegal. (Bonds stuff was maybe special and not known to the FDA and so probably legal until found out - I'm not sure about how they handle a new drug that hasn't been through the testing and approval stage)

Plus as we can easily see it doesn't get any acceptance publicly. And make no mistake, these guys are all highly paid performers just like musicians or actors, and for many teams a guy with issues isn't going to be around long.

Personally I do feel what was done was wrong, and in many cases a bit sad as well. Assuming Bonds only used for a few years which seems likely from the stats He probably would have made it to the career HR record a couple years later. Instead he took a quicker path and ruined what had been a great career. Most of the big names were already great without the juice, and the quick route left them with bad reputations which will eventually cost many of them millions in endorsements etc as well as a delayed HOF selection if not simply never being elected.

Other than that one summer of enjoyment watching McGwire and Sosa before it got really suspicious nobody has won in the end. Not the game,the players or the fans.

And for that Baseball and especially Selig must take part ofthe blame.

Steve B