EBAY today: Old Judge 4 card reprint lot, Buy-it-Now for only 599.00 !!!!

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Greetings all,

I just had to send this guy an e-mail regarding this auction. These cards are clearly reprints, probably from the Fritsch set and even though the seller states that they MAY be reprints, he's not sure because he says can't tell the difference (under magnification no less). I could tell the difference at a glance. Can anyone else on the board? Hopefully, this guy really just doesn't know what he has. I'm getting really sick of people hocking altered or fake cards on eBay and then pretending that they're not sure that the cards are fake, especially when it's obvious. Sorry to vent, it just gets tiresome after awhile. Anyway the link is below for you perusal.

Thanks,
Adam

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2743882378&category=31719

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Posted By: brian parker

This "gentleman" also has a variety of bogus Cracker Jacks and other vintage cards, but he does have some graded 'T' cards available (not to mention AA foofarah). One might think that if he had an iota of belief that these 'vintage' cards could be legitimate, being a non-expert he would have tried to get them graded, as he did with his Poor condition T207. Ouch, my brain hurts from too much logic.

Brian

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Posted By: julie

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Posted By: Hankron

Other than, as Julie points out, these cards don't resemble authentic Old Judges, reprints would be quickly identied because the reprinted images would have a dot pattern (as Old Judges are real photo, the images do not have a printed dot pattern).

This seller is being totally disingenous. For example, he says "upon close examination of these cards, under 10x magnification I surely can't see the difference." The difference between what? Is he comparing them with original Old Judges? As already noted, the difference between a reprint and a genuine Old Judge would be quickly and easily identifiable.

However, these points are moot, as the beginning collectors are responsible for asking basic questions. If he or she is are unwilling to ask the simplest questions like "Do these look okay to you?" or "How do you tell a reprint from an original?" or "Do you have an opinion of this auction" I have no sympathy for the winning bidder who bellyaches that he or she was 'had.' If the 7 year old down the my block can as these types questions, the 30 something year old bidding in this auction has no excuse.

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Posted By: Hankron

I should point out that I don't consider it in 'either or' situation. I find loathesome people like Roy Huff and this seller who pray on the ignorance of others, and would be more than happy if they were banned from eBay.

But guess what type of people these scammers sell to? Ignorant sellers who don't ask questions. Guess what types of people keep these scammers in business? These same ignorant buyers who don't ask any questions and buy the fakes. It's a sad and age old circle fueled by self-inflicted ingornace.

As soon as people start asking questions, the house of cards that is Roy Huff would topple in about one day.

Did you ever think that just maybe collectors should start asking questions before they bid? At the very least, it would serve shut me up.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Those are Fritsch reprints---you can tell by the wide borders. They look like they have been dipped in tea, perhaps to add to their taste. Dot matrix pattern on reprints would surely show up under 10X magnification so ............

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Posted By: Anonymous

His reply:

Subj: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2743882378
Date: 7/24/2003 7:14:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: drbond02@msn.com
To: newenglanddivine@aol.com
CC: drbond02@msn.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)


thank you, what is their website please, and I am selling as reprints to be safe, thankx again

The part I love the most is how he reiterates that he's selling them as reprints, even though he leaves the question of their authenticity up in the air on his auction. I simply sent him a reply with Fritsch.com's link and the link to the Old Judge reprint page on that site, Just in case he felt the need to challenge me or anyone else on it, as many scammers are known to do. They aren't "sure" if the cards are real or "don't know" much about cards, But they know a hell of a lot and are willing to argue about it when you put them and their fake items under 10x magnification.

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Posted By: runscott

even if the prospective bidders have never seen a real Old Judge they should have the sense to stay away from this auction.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I'm not sure longwindedly is a word, but it sounds smart!

I used to have a lot more sympathy myself for inexperienced buyers, but I have to agree with you Scott that my patience for ignorance is running out. Even though I haven't had the years in that some members of this board have for vintage material, I have been very fortunate thus far, in that I haven't yet been duped on a vintage card on ebay. Part of it definitely has to do with luck (everybody gets zapped eventually) and the other has everything to do with research. One of the reasons that I have yet to purchase an OJ reprint or a Cracker Jack card thats shinier then a mirror, is because I read constantly about these issues and I take the time to listen to the opinions and thoughts of more experienced collectors. In my opinion, there's no excuse for getting involved in any hobby blindly, especially when money is involved.

I think one of the reasons that so many of the scammers are popping up lately is due to the fact that many new collectors of sportscards or those with little experience in collecting vintage material, are jumping into it half-assed for all the wrong reasons or simply don't care about researching the items that they're buying. I don't really collect these cards for investment, although I know a lot of people who do. To me it's just an issue of consumer ignorance.

Long story short, if you warn people about private auctions, Roy Huff cut-outs, and the physical traits of a fake or altered card and they still buy it, then maybe they do deserve to get burned.

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Posted By: Anonymous

After sending this seller the link to Fritsch's website to show him that he's clearly selling reprints, he responded with this little gem:

Subj: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2743882378
Date: 7/24/2003 10:15:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: drbond02@msn.com
To: NewEnglandDivine@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)


thx, but those look nothing like my cards


I'm just wasting my breath with this one. He's apparently going to ply his scammin' skills no matter how many times the truth is shoved in his face. Oh, well. At least I'm not bidding on them.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I'm not going to be at the National, I'm low on funds and I'm bored, so I couldn't leave well enough alone and after my last post I sent this guy yet another e-mail letting him know my opinion on his cards. I was even gracious enough to provide him with several links to websites with images of REAL N172's. I must have struck a nerve however, because he replied very quickly with this:

Subj: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2743882378
Date: 7/25/2003 2:37:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: drbond02@msn.com
To: NewEnglandDivine@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)


THANK YOU, MUCH APPRECIATED, THAT’S WHY I AM NOT SELLING AS ORIGINALS, I KNOW W/O GRADING YOU CAN NEVER BE SURE, AND I THANK YOU

Oh, he still states clearly on his auction that he's selling them as reprints, however he's still leaving open the possibility that they're not for ignorant bidders as he continues to run this line of crap:

this lot of 4 1887 OLD JUDGE N172 BASEBALL CARDS are most probably reprints and are being offered for auction today as such, however upon close examination of these cards, under 10x magnification I surely can't see the difference., stranger things have happened at estate sales, REMEMBER THE ORIGINAL DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE DISCOVERED IN THE BACK OF THE $10 PICTURE FRAME! Eventually sold for over 1 MILLION DOLLARS! SURE Makes YOU THINK TWICE.!!

I'm beginning to wonder if this guy is mad that I'm questioning him or am I really that annoying and obnoxious? Maybe he'll calm down if I could introduce him to Ohiotarheelfan, I'll bet they would hit off quite nicely!

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Posted By: Hankron

Two points.

The auction is being sold as a private auction. I know that honest people make mistakes and misidentify items, but anytime an apparent scammer offers his wares in a private auction he knows exactly what he is selling. When an auction is private, he should not and does not get the benifit of the doubt ('Maybe he really isn't sure if they are reprints').

Research is what collecting is about. Research includes learning about old players, and how different cards were distributed and made, and what kinds of cigarette packs held the cards, and why Jimmy Foxx used this kind of basbeall bat, and why some Old Judges are pink, and why few baseball cards were made in the 1890s and what were the great old stadiums in the 1950s and debating who was better Mays or Ruth-- this is half the fun of collecting. How can one collect historical artifacts yet have no interest in the history? I just can't see how someone who 'doesn't do the research' is really interested in anything other than the dollar signs.

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Posted By: Hankron

The irony of that last sentence in my last post is that the person who does no research is the one who will likely lose money, while the one who does effective research is more likely able to make money.

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Posted By: runscott

I can assure you of this. As David has pointed out numerous times (and even discussed with himself ), there are several dead give-aways in his auction description.

A scammer will ALWAYS defend himself and NEVER admit he's trying to cheat people. So don't expect the guy to pick up his cards and leave ebay UNLESS he thinks his game is up, which isn't going to happen unless ebay cracks down on this "gee, it sure looks real, but since it's not graded I can't sell it as real" scam.

I think that some of us expect the scammers to react to our emails with something like "Gee, you are right - I now see the error of my ways and will reform immediately, pursuing nothing but honest endeavors from now on. Thanks for the powerful email that has finally convinced me. What church do you attend?"

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Posted By: runscott

Stay away from these if you have them book-marked - all are doctored reprints.