My PSA Damage Tale

[KingFisk]

A few months ago I posted a question on the board about having a card damaged by PSA. With the cashing of the check and the refunding of my reholder and shipping fees, I can now tell my story. I can only speak from my experience – as they say, I never had an issue before and really believed in the PSA seal of approval, for right or wrong. I don’t mean to sway anyone’s opinions of PSA, I only want to let you know what happened and how I felt about things along the way. I have probably submitted about 25 cards to PSA and as I said, never had a problem before, but this was the first time I’d ever sent cards in for reholder. I had a few old cases that were beat up, and in one case, I suspected something about the card.

I went to a PSA Public Day in late May to drop off the cards. I asked the woman there who handled my order about the one card. It was a PSA 7 1968 Nolan Ryan/Jerry Koosman - I told her I thought it might be a Milton Bradley version because of the coloring on the reverse and some other patterns I’d noticed on other Milton Bradley Ryan/Koosmans (orange-ish “1968 Rookie Stars”, for example). She told me all cards get reviewed during reholder process, so to write on the sheet that I thought it might be a Milton Bradley and they’d check.

Eventually my results appeared online – sure enough, my card was a Milton Bradley, dropped off my post-war HOF Rookies, and first-ballot rookies registry sets and became one of the relatively low population of Milton Bradley PSA 7 Ryan/Koosman rookies. I was pretty pleased, though didn’t care too much, as I was just happy with the card itself (nicely centered to my eye and I got it originally for a great price) and never really cared about the variation. I also honestly didn’t realize it was going to become ineligible for the post-war HOF Rookies registry set, which bummed me out slightly, since I was flirting with the low range of the top 20 current list. But I’m not too much into that sort of thing, so no big deal.

The card arrived a few days later and as I opened up the package, I immediately saw something was wrong. There lower left hand corner looked to be missing paper and the corner was a bit discolored and crushed on the reverse. I checked it against my old scans and sure enough, the some of the burlap pattern was gone. The card was clearly damaged, and it sent me down a two month journey of annoyance.

Without going into the gory details, here is a brief recap of what transpired. I’m going to present this as soberly as I can, though my opinion and feeling about things will come through:

1. I wrote to customer service immediately and cc’d Joe Orlando. I sent in numerous scans, pointed out the issues…and then I didn’t hear anything for two days - until I wrote a separate email to Joe Orlando directly. He forwarded my note to a customer service manager who said she’d help me when she was back from vacation.
2. I sent the card back and after two or three weeks I was given an offer of about 50% of current market value (seemingly based on SMR and my declared value at the time I submitted…the card took off in the meantime)
3. I sent a long note and a VCP download stating that their settlement price was way too low. They said they’d get back to me and I got a call a week later. We eventually settled on a much fairer number (I probably should’ve pushed for more, but I think I ended up in a good place), and I got my card back. So no real quibble there, other than the extreme lowball at first.
4. My beautiful old PSA 7 was rightly downgraded to a PSA 3. I asked if it bothered them at all that they damaged a card and reholdered it with the old grade, causing what was clearly no longer a 7 to potentially be circulated with that flip, and my customer service manager got extremely defensive and said “we’re human too. That’s why we have the grade guarantee.” I found the “we’re human” argument rather scary for a group that prides itself on being the first and last name when it comes to grading and authentication.
5. I asked repeatedly what happened to the card, or what could have happened, and the inquiry was ignored.
6. I never got a true apology, other than an eventual, sideways “we’re sorry this happened” on the phone. Not “sorry we damaged your card that you entrusted to us” or “have a year of Collector’s Club on us” or anything like that.
7. Personal observation – some of the least friendly and helpful customer service people I’ve ever dealt with. They wrecked my card but always sort of made me feel like they were doing me a favor by agreeing to hear my case. I found them standoffish, somewhat confrontational and absolutely without remorse.
8. Personal bemusement – given the high value of the card and having been a PSA collector’s club member for a few years, I was a little surprised I didn’t hear anything from Joe Orlando directly after I personally reached out to him a couple of times. I understand he’s the president, but a little “gee, we’re really sorry we did this to you card, please keep your faith in us” may have gone a long way. Instead, it was steely silence from the boss. No matter, just a little upsetting.

They are the market leader so clearly my tale of woe doesn’t matter too much to them and life in the slabbed world carries on. But wanted to share my tale with the board - I am sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen too often, but just be careful when sending your items in, as someone on staff may end up taking their hacks at the corners of your cards.

Images attached.

1. Original Card corner as a PSA 7
2. Reholdered Card as a PSA 7

[bobbyw8469]

WOW....Just wow! But not surprising.

[bn2cardz]

Since you were getting a new slab I think you had an advantage. I have had a card that I sent in come back with messed up corners and once had a slight wrinkle. All of which wasn't there when I sent in the cards, but I had no way to prove it to them since they would just say that isn't how it was received. If it wasn't for resale value I wouldn't even risk it.

[ullmandds]

Sorry this happened to you...but sounds par for the course with every other similar psa story I've ever heard.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Although it took a few emails and some negotiation on the value, at least they took care of you. The part that I find really troubling is that they tried to cover up the problem by just re-slabbing the card and sending it back to you like nothing ever happened. Customer service should have called you immediately after the damage occurred, apologized and offered to make good on it right then. They shouldn't have just slabbed the card back up with the damage and sent it back to you as if you're not going to notice. Then again, that's the kind of customer service that PSA has become known for.

[biggsdaddycool]

Having been in sales for the bulk of my working career, who would want the reputation of their business to hinge on stories of poor customer service? Especially in 2016!

There are so many ways PSA and any of the other grading companies can insure quality service throughout the process.

With technology as cheap and easy as it is these days, there is no reason there shouldn't be standards in the processing of cards to photograph or video each and every shipment to them so that they can have evidence right out of the box that things are okay.

Beyond that, for the quality control sake of your graders, who BTW, should be well paid and well educated, photographing each submission throughout the process.

The technology is so cheap and easy to use that there very well could be a quick snap at each level that would not lengthen the process, in order to protect themselves.

Going forward, on the customer service side, the previous commenter is correct, they should have proactively reached out to the submitter and took care of full price on the card and allowed the submitter to keep it, slabbed at the lower grade.

In the event that a human error did occur, rather than believing they intentionally covered it up, upon submission of a complaint, PSA or whatever grading company, could go back through the photographic evidence and deal with the grader appropriately, based on severity.

On top of that they then should have done the same full market value and return lower grade card.

In my experience, I would never let my reputation be lost over something as simple as making things right. I want people to know they can count on me no matter what happens.

I apologize for the lengthy response, but if it were my company, I would not want even one sale lost over human error. The right people should be held accountable and the customer should be feel more than satisfied after such an incident.

*Also, should have thrown in some free submissions and subscriptions.


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[gemmint77]

Scary, one would think PSA would take better care of there paying members. Will hold off on my submission.

[T206Collector]

How the heck do you lose the top corner of paper? And at a card grading company, no less?

I think it would actually be pretty tough to devise a way to remove just the top layer of a corner if I was trying to do that. But, by accident? I'm so curious as to how that happened.

[ullmandds]

At this time...PSA doesn't have to do better with customer service. They are the only game in town for many buyers of cards.

[biggsdaddycool]

See that's the problem. In any business arrogance is generally the cause of downfall. I work for a pretty major company who is a leader in our field, and not one of our higher ups would allow a poor customer experience to allow us to lose even one sale.

People hear these things and don't submit. I have enough business experience to know that there's only one way to stay on top...and it's not arrogance.


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[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by biggsdaddycool

See that's the problem. In any business arrogance is generally the cause of downfall. I work for a pretty major company who is a leader in our field, and not one of our higher ups would allow a poor customer experience to allow us to lose even one sale.

People hear these things and don't submit. I have enough business experience to know that there's only one way to stay on top...and it's not arrogance.


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well If people would stop paying such ridiculous amounts of cash for PSA graded cards...

[conor912]

Maybe I'm missing something, but knocking that down from a 7 to a 3 seems awfully harsh.

[T206Collector]

The "problem" is that their brand is really in the huge volumes of cards they have already graded. It would be hard to imagine the number of epic failures that you'd need to sink that gigantic float -- for people to stop submitting, you'd need the values of the cards that have already been submitted to plummet.

Even with better customer service, and more consistent grading across the board, SGC barely made a dent. If you total the current number of "SGC" hits vs. "PSA" hits on ebay in "sports, mem, cards & fan shop" library, SGC has just over 6% of the volume of PSA. And it doesn't help that they're so "soft" on corner rounding in the pre-war card category...

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

How the heck do you lose the top corner of paper? And at a card grading company, no less?

I think it would actually be pretty tough to devise a way to remove just the top layer of a corner if I was trying to do that. But, by accident? I'm so curious as to how that happened.

I agree.

I assume it is absolutely certain that both cards are one and the same.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The "problem" is that their brand is really in the huge volumes of cards they have already graded. It would be hard to imagine the number of epic failures that you'd need to sink that gigantic float -- for people to stop submitting, you'd need the values of the cards that have already been submitted to plummet.

Even with better customer service, and more consistent grading across the board, SGC barely made a dent. If you total the current number of "SGC" hits vs. "PSA" hits on ebay in "sports, mem, cards & fan shop" library, SGC has just over 6% of the volume of PSA. And it doesn't help that they're so "soft" on corner rounding in the pre-war card category...

+1...what would it take for many to crack their psa graded cards and resubmit...at a cost of course...to some new, better grading company? Not likely to happen imo.

[bxb]

I've had a few cards come back from PSA with damaged or bent corners. Fortunately they were low value. My sense has been that the grade is decided by person #1, and then later on down the line the card is put in the holder by person #2 who accidentally damages the card and may or may not know he did so.

[glynparson]

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not. Not sure if there offer was more than insured value or not honestly didn't read everything. I did notice a criticism in another post like this was a company coverup. The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation. For the record o do submit frequently and have not had an issue like this though I have had a card or two I believe they may have lightly damaged. I also find their customer service to be excellent over the last few years. Jackie, TaCora and Devin in my opinion all provide excellent service and have handled all my concerns or issues professionally and with a pleasing positive attitude.

[KingFisk]

I am glad to hear that others have had had positive customer experiences with PSA. I can only tell you that I did not. They did step up when I challenged what they were going to give me for reimbursement. I am not going to go into details of the negotiations there, but what they offered initially was what they claimed to be "fair market value" and it simply wasn't fair market value. We came to an agreement that I am comfortable with and that is the one positive outcome.

The reason I wanted to share this story mostly - and a few of you hit right on it - was the fact that a card that was so clearly damaged was released back into the wild with the exact same grade as it had before the damage occurred. That tells me that there is no final QC happening and that it just makes me question the system they have in place, as well as the grades of other cards that are out there. I know when I was first getting started back in collecting, I relied a lot on the grade of the card as my eye wasn't trained for the "card not the flip" aspect. But if PSA grades inherently carry a value, this is just another illustration of how that value is potentially deeply flawed. And I have nothing to gain sharing this - 99% of my collection is in PSA slabs and I want them to have a bulletproof reputation. While I am small potatoes as a collector, I've invested what to me is quite a bit of money in what I was hoping were cards that were effectively bonded, if you will, by PSA's reputation.

And yes, the nature of the damage is so baffling to me - I can not understand for the life of me how they mangled the surface like that. I suspect it had something to do with the slabbing process. That's why I asked a few times what might have happened, but got no response. Anyway - just wish I had my card back the way it was.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

I am glad to hear that others have had had positive customer experiences with PSA. I can only tell you that I did not. They did step up when I challenged what they were going to give me for reimbursement. I am not going to go into details of the negotiations there, but what they offered initially was what they claimed to be "fair market value" and it simply wasn't fair market value. We came to an agreement that I am comfortable with and that is the one positive outcome.



The reason I wanted to share this story mostly - and a few of you hit right on it - was the fact that a card that was so clearly damaged was released back into the wild with the exact same grade as it had before the damage occurred. That tells me that there is no final QC happening and that it just makes me question the system they have in place, as well as the grades of other cards that are out there. I know when I was first getting started back in collecting, I relied a lot on the grade of the card as my eye wasn't trained for the "card not the flip" aspect. But if PSA grades inherently carry a value, this is just another illustration of how that value is potentially deeply flawed. And I have nothing to gain sharing this - 99% of my collection is in PSA slabs and I want them to have a bulletproof reputation. While I am small potatoes as a collector, I've invested what to me is quite a bit of money in what I was hoping were cards that were effectively bonded, if you will, by PSA's reputation.



And yes, the nature of the damage is so baffling to me - I can not understand for the life of me how they mangled the surface like that. I suspect it had something to do with the slabbing process. That's why I asked a few times what might have happened, but got no response. Anyway - just wish I had my card back the way it was.

And that is how a "major" company slowly looses confidence in its already existing market.

No company is infallible, and no company is untouchable, so much so as that continuing to slab a card a 7 that is clearly not a 7 will only lead to questions as to the validity of their product.

Lest we forget there are already some pretty big stains on their record. If I were running that, or any, grading company, I would focus on quality control to a fault.


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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not.

I disagree. Insured value is to determine return postage. He deserved the difference between the value of a PSA 7 and a PSA 3, no matter what he insured it for. Insured value doesn't have anything to do with determining PSAs limits of liability. If he had insured the card for $100K, do you think PSA should have to pay him that?

Originally Posted by glynparson

The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation.

A lot of speculation there. If the damage would have occured in the slabbing process, wouldn't the missing piece of paper be sealed inside the slab? Low level employees equate to carelessness? Again, a lot of speculation.

[swarmee]

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

I like PSA. They've done plenty wrong on the hundreds of cards I've submitted, but those were mostly minor (misplacing cards, refusing to grade cards under the proper service level, forgetting they grade coins, and many incorrect labels), but I don't go whining to the company president.

The thing that is currently irking me about them is that for the last two months, the cheapest bulk submission for Collector's Club members is $8/card. If it stays like that for the next couple of months, I won't be renewing in November.

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

I like PSA. They've done plenty wrong on the hundreds of cards I've submitted, but those were mostly minor (misplacing cards, refusing to grade cards under the proper service level, forgetting they grade coins, and many incorrect labels), but I don't go whining to the company president.

The thing that is currently irking me about them is that for the last two months, the cheapest bulk submission for Collector's Club members is $8/card. If it stays like that for the next couple of months, I won't be renewing in November.

I had read a few places that he often takes a personal interest on stuff like this and just said it would have been nice. "No matter, just a little upsetting." I think I was pretty clear that it wasn't a big deal. That's a really spot on comparison, by the way. Microsoft and PSA. Totally equal.

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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

In your attempt at sarcasm, you've actually showed your lack of knowledge. Go search past CU threads and you'll see that many, many times Joe Orlando has made offers for customers that have problems or questions to call him directly.

[MikeGarcia]

..if this thread were posted on CU tonight , would it still be up tomorrow ?

..

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

..if this thread were posted on CU tonight , would it still be up tomorrow ?

..

Of course not...are you kidding me?

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not. Not sure if there offer was more than insured value or not honestly didn't read everything. I did notice a criticism in another post like this was a company coverup. The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation. For the record o do submit frequently and have not had an issue like this though I have had a card or two I believe they may have lightly damaged. I also find their customer service to be excellent over the last few years. Jackie, TaCora and Devin in my opinion all provide excellent service and have handled all my concerns or issues professionally and with a pleasing positive attitude.

I agree!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wait; the President of a multi-million dollar company didn't immediately return your call about the damage to a $1,000 card?
Do you call Bill Gates when Windows gives you the blue screen of death?

Are you really still on win 98/ME or older?

I'm on win 7 and I can't recall a single bluescreen in the entire time we've had it - about 6 years.

Plus, MS charges for support calls unless you've got a service contract. So basically you are on your own. (There is a support forum, but I've never found it at all helpful.)

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You do not deserve anymore than your insured value regardless if card took off or not. Not sure if there offer was more than insured value or not honestly didn't read everything. I did notice a criticism in another post like this was a company coverup. The moron that damaged the card most likely did so in the slabbing process reslabbed and gave it to shipping where it was sent back. I doubt Joe said just slab it a 7 and send it back to him. Don't think it was a vast company conspiracy but a poor job performance by a low level employee that probably could care less about the companies reputation. For the record o do submit frequently and have not had an issue like this though I have had a card or two I believe they may have lightly damaged. I also find their customer service to be excellent over the last few years. Jackie, TaCora and Devin in my opinion all provide excellent service and have handled all my concerns or issues professionally and with a pleasing positive attitude.

I do think the problem was likely somewhere in the process, and that someone along the line just said oops and let it go through as-is.

But I can't agree on only getting the insured value from PSA. The card went to them as a 7, and they damaged it. So they should pay the difference between the received grade and the grade after damage. (This sort of thing is on peoples court all the time usually when someone totals a borrowed car or wrecks clothes while dry cleaning)
Whatever company was the carrier for shipping would be responsible for only the insured amount. And could dispute it if it seemed unreasonable. Like if I insured a modern common for a few thousand hoping it would be lost or damaged.

I'd love to hear from one of our actual lawyers about how the difference in values would be determined. In other words, is it the values at the time of the damage, values at the time the damage was pointed out (assuming it was noticed quickly and not months or years later) Or if it got as far as court the values at the time of the decision?

I'd imagine that for nearly all collectibles there would be no or almost no difference. But here because of an odd market the values changed quite a bit over a short time.

Steve B

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

... I'm on win 7 and I can't recall a single bluescreen in the entire time we've had it - about 6 years. ...

I'm guessing you don't work in IT. Trust me, the BSOD is still a thing.

[Bpm0014]

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

i love it!!!! how about a little conviction Brendan!!!!

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

+1 To my point from earlier.


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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bpm0014

the very first card ever submitted to psa (wagner) was trimmed. Psa knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise psa and everything they stand for.....

a big +1

[PM770]

By the way, who had under 2 hours in the "When will the first 'Nuh-uh, PSA is Awesome' post arrive" pool?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by steve B

I do think the problem was likely somewhere in the process, and that someone along the line just said oops and let it go through as-is.

But I can't agree on only getting the insured value from PSA. The card went to them as a 7, and they damaged it. So they should pay the difference between the received grade and the grade after damage. (This sort of thing is on peoples court all the time usually when someone totals a borrowed car or wrecks clothes while dry cleaning)
Whatever company was the carrier for shipping would be responsible for only the insured amount. And could dispute it if it seemed unreasonable. Like if I insured a modern common for a few thousand hoping it would be lost or damaged.

I'd love to hear from one of our actual lawyers about how the difference in values would be determined. In other words, is it the values at the time of the damage, values at the time the damage was pointed out (assuming it was noticed quickly and not months or years later) Or if it got as far as court the values at the time of the decision?

I'd imagine that for nearly all collectibles there would be no or almost no difference. But here because of an odd market the values changed quite a bit over a short time.

Steve B

It's not just that. It went from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. That alone increased the value substantially.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

The very first card ever submitted to PSA (Wagner) was trimmed. PSA knew it was trimmed. Yet, they knowingly decided to be dishonest to the public about it. That says a lot about the company right there. I despise PSA and everything they stand for.....

Geez.. This holier-than-thou shtick is ridiculous. PSA has kept this hobby on a level playing field for 25 years. I remember buying raw cards in catalogs sight unseen and almost always being disappointed with the condition. That was the hobby we used to live in. A card advertised as "EX-MT" in the old monthly circulars were almost always EX or worse.

Now I can confidently buy cards sight unseen or with a bad scan because I have some very reasonable assurance that the card is unaltered and in the advertised condition. Not only that, but if it isn't unaltered or in the advertised condition, I have an additional financial guarantee beyond the seller. PSA did that for us. This hobby was a cesspool of greed and fraud in the 1990's. That was where we were at and I'm not trying to go back.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I'm guessing you don't work in IT. Trust me, the BSOD is still a thing.

Nope, not in IT.

Compared to Win 98 which I drove to BSOD a couple times a week at least and XP which did it fairly regularly win 7 is far better. Like I said, none I can recall since we got the machine. (Can't rule out it happening and me not remembering it, but for me it's become a rare thing.)

A lot of common websites like games on FB do leak enough memory to make shutting down IE fairly often a necessity. The new machine I need to get setup I think is win 10, so that'll be interesting.

My wife does work for MS, and I've got plenty of gripes which I'm forbidden from griping about publicly. But BSOD is no longer one of them. (Apparently spouses publicly griping about the product is seriously frowned upon )

Steve B

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

This hobby was a cesspool of greed and fraud in the 1990's.

If you don't think the hobby has become a bigger cesspool of greed and fraud as a result of grading, you've got your head buried in the sand. I would absolutely love to debate this with you on the open forum.

Let me give you one example. The whole PSA half grade implementation was a result of greed - PSA wanting the Kool Aid drinkers to resubmit their cards so they could be charged again. Not only was it greed on PSA's part, but also greed on the part of the collector in thinking their PSA 8 could become a PSA 8.5 and magically increase the value...even though it's the same card.

If it weren't greed, why did Joe Orlando flip flop his stance of half point grades? Here are two quotes from him (about four and a half years apart) regarding half point grades.

"From the start, I have been against .5 grades" 7/10/2003
"I stand behind it 100%" (referring to the implementation of half point grades" 1/17/2008

So, what changed? Greed! Again, if you don't think greed has increased with grading, you've been hiding under a rock or something. I have many, many more examples.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you don't think the hobby has become a bigger cesspool of greed and fraud as a result of grading, you've got your head buried in the sand. I would absolutely love to debate this with you on the open forum.

Let me give you one example. The whole PSA half grade implementation was a result of greed - PSA wanting the Kool Aid drinkers to resubmit their cards so they could be charged again. Not only was it greed on PSA's part, but also greed on the part of the collector in thinking their PSA 8 could become a PSA 8.5 and magically increase the value...even though it's the same card.

If it weren't greed, why did Joe Orlando flip flop his stance of half point grades? Here are two quotes from him (about four and a half years apart) regarding half point grades.

"From the start, I have been against .5 grades" 7/10/2003
"I stand behind it 100%" (referring to the implementation of half point grades" 1/17/2008

So, what changed? Greed! Again, if you don't think greed has increased with grading, you've been hiding under a rock or something. I have many, many more examples.

I have a stack of signed 8x10's with old scoreboard COAs if you're interested. Third party authenticators have done more to clean up this hobby than any single person, auction house or entity.

PSA introduced half grades out of greed, but there is nothing inherently deceptive about the practice. You're complaining about half grades as if they're bad - who cares? SGC has them, GAI did, BVG does. I am more concerned about fraud.

Would you buy a 1952 Topps Mantle ungraded? How about a Wagner? Would you spend more than $100 on a raw card sight unseen?

But yes, I would debate that a hobby without third party authenticators is a hobby with more greed and fraud.

[steve B]

My answers added in bold. All assume that somehow I actually had the money, and for the first two that I could handle the card before buying.

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Would you buy a 1952 Topps Mantle ungraded? Yes
How about a Wagner? Yes
Would you spend more than $100 on a raw card sight unseen? That would depend on who was selling

Steve B

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by steve B

My answers added in bold. All assume that somehow I actually had the money, and for the first two that I could handle the card before buying.

Steve B

Fair, if the circumstances are perfect I would spend the money as well. However, 99.9% of my hobby purchases are done without handling the item beforehand.

I guess a better question: do you believe more fraudulent Mantles and Wagners are sold in PSA slabs, or out of them? Because is there is significantly more fraud when PSA isn't involved in a transaction, what leads people to believe that the absence of third party graders would lead to a less fraudulent hobby environment?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I have a stack of signed 8x10's with old scoreboard COAs if you're interested.

Not interested, but let's start with your opening sentence. Are you're inferring that with PSA/DNA (and other like third party authenticators) that the number of fake autographs has decreased in our hobby? Come on, that is certainly not the case. Or are you inferring that autograph collectors can now have peace of mind from a third party authenticated autograph such as by PSA/DNA? If the latter is the case, let's revisit this thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148790

This was a facsimile autograph that PSA/DNA authenticated as being the real deal. It wasn't a fake or a forgery, it was a copy of the original. A 10 year old with a loupe can tell the difference between a facsimile autograph and one that is actually penned. Why couldn't PSA/DNA? You can't blame this on on "mechanical error" as you PSA apologists like to often do. They simply authenticated a reproduction autograph without looking at it under magnification.

OK, how does this relate to our topic of greed and fraud? Well, it was fraudulently submitted and authenticated and then the greed of the OP wouldn't let him see the fact that it was a fake.

You infer that autograph collecting has become safer with TPG authentication, but how do you explain PSA/DNA authenticating a copy - again, not a forgery - a copy?

What greed and fraud topic do you want to talk about next?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Not interested, but let's start with your opening sentence. Are you're inferring that with PSA/DNA (and other like third party authenticators) that the number of fake autographs has decreased in our hobby? Come on, that is certainly not the case. Or are you inferring that autograph collectors can now have peace of mind from a third party authenticated autograph such as by PSA/DNA? If the latter is the case, let's revisit this thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=148790

This was a facsimile autograph that PSA/DNA authenticated as being the real deal. It wasn't a fake or a forgery, it was a copy of the original. A 10 year old with a loupe can tell the difference between a facsimile autograph and one that is actually penned. Why couldn't PSA/DNA? You can't blame this on on "mechanical error" as you PSA apologists like to often do. They simply authenticated a reproduction autograph without looking at it under magnification.

OK, how does this relate to our topic of greed and fraud? Well, it was fraudulently submitted and authenticated and then the greed of the OP wouldn't let him see the fact that it was a fake.

You infer that autograph collecting has become safer with TPG authentication, but how do you explain PSA/DNA authenticating a copy - again, not a forgery - a copy?

What greed and fraud topic do you want to talk about next?

Do you believe more people have purchased forgeries without PSA/DNA certification or with?

Yes, I am claiming that the autograph hobby has become immensely safer for the casual collector. If I look on eBay for signed Mickey Mantle baseballs without third party authentication I 100% believe that I will find more forgeries than searching eBay for baseballs with authentication.

Also, do you believe I can find more eBay listings for fake 1952 Mantles listed as authentic in PSA slabs or raw?

Edited to add: ALSO, are you seriously inferring a casual collector is better off buying a high dollar autograph without any authentication than with? Because I couldn't disagree more with you.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you don't think the hobby has become a bigger cesspool of greed and fraud as a result of grading, you've got your head buried in the sand. I would absolutely love to debate this with you on the open forum.

I don't think I can agree with any statement any more than this one. Having been a collector, show promoter, dealer, store owner and back to collector (kinda in that order) for the better part of 42 years I feel you hit the nail squarely on the head.

The hobby was a very cool place to be in the '70's then greed took over in the 80's with those investors leaving after the card companies tried to capitalize on everyone hoping to put their kids through college with the modern stuff they had stored away. I remember the single player brick ads disappearing around 1990 and the investors leaving the hobby to the collectors soon after. It was only with the introduction of grading in the early 1990's did the investors return when they saw the value in owning the best of the best and determined if a flip had a "10" on it, well then it must be best and values skyrocketed. All one has to do it look at hobby history to know that the hobby has become the cesspool you mentioned since the advent of grading.

[darwinbulldog]

Not my card, but maybe this whole cutting corners thing is a trend at PSA this year.

Before: http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-ca...a/7135-80444.s

After: https://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDeta...entoryid=33373

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Do you believe more people have purchased forgeries without PSA/DNA certification or with?

Obviously people have purchased more forgeries w/o. But that’s only because of the false sense of security that the PSA/DNA COA brings. I don’t collect a lot of autographs, but there are people on this forum whose opinions I trust way more than PSA/DNA. You really didn’t address my point about the Cobb. They authenticated a facsimile signature. You’re not getting that. We’re not talking about authenticating a forgery. That’s different. This was a facsimile! How can you trust a company that can’t tell the difference between a facsimile and the real deal? Or how can you trust a company that can’t tell the difference between Karl Malone and Karl Malden? (This is your opportunity to throw out the “mechanical error” excuse).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336

If having that PSA/DNA flip, COA, LOA makes you sleep better at night, then so be it. But that PSA/DNA stamp of approval doesn’t mean anything to me (and there are many like me) when it’s obvious from the two examples I pointed out that they don’t know what they’re doing.

I really wanted our focus to be on cards since that’s what we were originally discussing. There are MORE card doctors today than ever before as a result of grading. The greed and fraud in this hobby has caused card doctors to hone their skills to be able to slip their alterations by the grade monkeys at these TPGs. Why? Because of the $$$ that some cards can bring in a high grade.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

It's not just that. It went from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. That alone increased the value substantially.

Wow!!! That's incredible!!! PSA had it go from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. What more possible good things could PSA also do?

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure it was a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was resubmitted. In fact, I'll bet it was also a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was originally slabbed, as a regular Topps issue.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Wow!!! That's incredible!!! PSA had it go from a regular issue to a Milton Bradley issue. What more possible good things could PSA also do?

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure it was a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was resubmitted. In fact, I'll bet it was also a Milton Bradley issue BEFORE it was originally slabbed, as a regular Topps issue.

It was. HOWEVER, I doubt very seriously it would have attained Milton Bradley pricing without the flip labeling as such.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Fair, if the circumstances are perfect I would spend the money as well. However, 99.9% of my hobby purchases are done without handling the item beforehand.

I guess a better question: do you believe more fraudulent Mantles and Wagners are sold in PSA slabs, or out of them? Because is there is significantly more fraud when PSA isn't involved in a transaction, what leads people to believe that the absence of third party graders would lead to a less fraudulent hobby environment?

A fair question.

Obviously more fake Mantles and Wagners are sold out of slabs. But most of them are so bad I can't understand why anyone buys them. Unless you're a very lazy scammer looking to pass one off at a flea market why buy this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Ho...p2047675.l2557

when you could buy this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-25-RE...gAAOSwajVUP2lR

The second question is a tougher one, with no clear answer as I see it. Third party grading and the competitiveness of the registry has certainly raised prices for cards in higher grades. And those higher prices eventually raise prices for those of us that have to settle for whatever grade we can afford. If an 8 is too much, someone might go a bit over the average for a 7.

That's both good and bad. When I was hanging out at a shop 1977-83 ish, the values weren't anywhere near as high. And I saw a number of decent but not great collections walk away from the dealer because there wasn't enough value to compete with sentimental value. Say Grandpa had 100 T206s almost all commons, almost all VG. 1977 commons were 1.50 each and most HOFers $10 So the whole lot might bring an offer of $50-75. That's not usually enough to convince someone to sell gramps cards. Today, even if they're all commons say $40 each, so the offer might be 2-3000, maybe higher depending on how little margin a dealer wants to work with. And that's probably enough to convince someone to sell.

Without grading, I doubt the prices would be where they are. Lets say they'd be about half, less for the really nice cards, the 8-10s.

And without the money there won't be as much fraud.

The Dover reprints were around in 78, and either 78 or 79 was the only time I saw them being offered at a show as anything but reprints. Between 78 and 82 other than that small batch I saw less than 10 fake cards. Probably less than 5, as only a few come to mind. One was a fantasy piece made from a cropped photo of an old judge added to old cardstock with some newspaper ads and waxed. There was a 51 Mantle that was spectacular, but had been shopped around to a few dealers by mail that everyone believed to be fake but couldn't say why. When they showed it to me I looked at it for a long time before saying "That's a really good fake but I don't know why" The third is a card I bought at the first show I went to. An American Caramel Joe Wood series of 120. Looking at it now, it's obvious it's fake. What's always amazed me is the effort it took at the time. Printing a card without digital imaging and printers was just like printing anything else, and to do all that work for $2 seemed pretty crazy.

Of course there were trimmed cards, and especially on 71 Topps, recolored cards. But very few outright fakes.

Once the Rose rookie became expensive that all changed. I still wish I'd bought the fake one dealer had, one from the supply the faker had or from a dealer who'd bought a stack of them. (At the time, not as crazy as it sounds, you could order lots of 100 of nearly any card from Fritsh . I got a bit of trade value for unpacking an order of Yaz cards and putting them away 100 of each from 1970-about 76) Anyway, it was framed along with a copy of a court letter allowing its sale as long as it was stamped "counterfeit"
Within a few years there were enough fakes they filled a book.

Steve B

[chaddurbin]

psa/sgc/psadna/jsa for all the shortcomings have done immeasureably more good for the hobby than bad, ainec. if you can't see that then you've got an axe to grind somewhere or you're one of those back in my days kinda guy. registry war, price manipulation, slab tampering is not the cause of TPA, but a byproduct.

OP by his own admission got a fair price for the damage (but he could've stuck it to them for more), he can probably buy another regular psa7 ryan with the money and get to keep his MB card...not sure why he'd care if joe orlando sends him a christmas card. 15 years ago orlando would be doing those public fridays every month where locals can drop off their submissions and he had to create small talks and shake a few hands....those days are long gone.