Elite eleven - karger

[gsgutow]

I've been collecting for 20 yrs and just came across a karger sweet caporal 350 series! I always thought these did not exist and worry it is a fake. Any thoughts?

Gutman

[Luke]

Shouldn't exist. Would be a cool discovery. Post scans and pics. The more the better.

[sreader3]

Would be a big deal if confirmed.

Would love to see scans.

Rebacked?

[gsgutow]

Here's the pics... hopefully I uploaded them correctly.

[RCMcKenzie]

neat

[sreader3]

EDITED TO ADD: SEE BELOW SKEPTICISM. BALL IN OP'S COURT ON THIS.

Very nice find -- and in great condition to boot!

The ink bleed suggests (I think?) that it's NOT rebacked and that other copies once existed! CAN ONE OF YOU S/W GURUS MAP THE INK BLEED ON THE BACK TO KARGER'S FRONT? THANKS!

After 100+ years of discards, it's probably now (if it's legit) unique like the Schulte (Front View) P350.

There is one other 150/350 subject I know of where possibly only one copy exists with SC 350/30 -- Karger now may be in that category.

So I guess now we have the "Tough Ten" instead of the "Elite Eleven."

Edited to add: Hmmmm. Starting to wonder if the ink bleed pattern on the back matches Karger's front . . . .

Also, lower left corner on Karger front scan doesn't seem to match lower right corner on back scan ??? . . .

[Luke]

The corners look more rounded on the front scan than the back. The bottom left corner scans are not the same card imo.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

The corners look more rounded on the front scan than the back. The bottom left corner scans are not the same card imo.

Agreed Luke. Also, ink bleed does not seem to match. Ball in original poster's court.

[sreader3]

Okay OP has a Net54 join date of today.

Damn the scams are getting sophisticated. A Karger SC 350 scam? Seriously?

[CMIZ5290]

Scot- I knew either you or Ted Z. would know the answer. Leon, what's next for this contestant??

[gsgutow]

Don't know what to tell you guys. I don't have the card in my hands. Just purchased it. Was concerned it was a fake and wanted some opinions. Understand the doubters. How can I prove it once I get the card in my hands?

[sreader3]

Send it to PSA.

And then we may (or still may not) believe you.

Ink bleed and corner mismatch are problems.

And how about telling us something about provenance? From whom, when and where did you get the card (provide verification)? We would like to speak with them.

[Pat R]

I would bet SGC has it right and the seller posted the wrong back scan.

[sreader3]

BOOM! Patrick you are the man.

How do you do that?

[sreader3]

I want to apologize to OP. I don't think he's a scammer -- there was just a mismatch between seller's front/back scans and reality and buyer posted before the card was in hand. Thank you Patrick. I'm amazed.

[gsgutow]

Nice find. That is the card. I was trying to look up the certification number myself but couldn't figure out how to do it on their website.

The seller did say the back matches the front, but I'm going to send him another note.

Thanks for the help except for those who jumped to judgement. That is the exact reason why I don't like joining forums. I was an excited, concerned collector just looking for some advice.

[Pat R]

I agree Scot. I don't believe the op was trying to scam anyone either but
I think he will be disappointed when he gets the card and should contact the
seller before he ships it.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by gsgutow

Thanks for the help except for those who jumped to judgement. That is the exact reason why I don't like joining forums. I was an excited, concerned collector just looking for some advice.

Please keep in mind that you too "jumped to judgment" by posting before you had the card in hand. Scan mismatches are not all that uncommon, and most of us would wait to have the card in hand before posting about it. Thanks again to Patrick for an unbelievable resolution.

[Luke]

I don't think we were mean. I just said that back scan is not the same card. You got the answer you were looking for.

[gsgutow]

I wanted to get feedback before purchasing it so that was the reason for the post. Needed some experts opinions since I am not one, just a lover of the set.

By the way, how can you lookup sgc certification codes? Still can't find a way on their site

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by gsgutow

I wanted to get feedback before purchasing it so that was the reason for the post. Needed some experts opinions since I am not one, just a lover of the set.

By the way, how can you lookup sgc certification codes? Still can't find a way on their site

I think you still have to call them. Here's a thread from last year about
it.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=209161

[Pat R]

I think the karger and Steinfeldt back scans were mixed up and this
is the karger back.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...sAAOSwIgNXnjhw


The seller corrected the back scans here's the correct back for the Karger that he originally had in his Steinfeldt listing.http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...IAAOSwqfNXnjd1

[brianp-beme]

A couple years ago I thought I might have a Magee batting Sweet Caporal card with a factory designation (30) that doesn't exist in the 350-460 series, which kinda got me mildly excited.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=t206

Turns out the consensus here believed that it was missing the factory 42 overstrike. So honest overexcitement when thinking you might have something considered impossible is definitely excusable, as I was quickly willing to excuse myself, and dagnab it I am willing to do so now for others.

Brian

[Leon]

Mighty kind of you.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

... as I was quickly willing to excuse myself, and dagnab it I am willing to do so now for others.

Brian

[tedzan]

I just returned from Cooperstown and spotted this thread. I did not think my "Elite 11" were in any peril, as the front/back scans
of this Karger did not match up with respect to its four corners.

I have looked at many 100's of Karger's (and the other Elite 11 guys) ever since I presented this theory (circa 2007); and, I have
never seen a SWEET CAP 350 or SOVEREIGN 350 of any of them.

Great detective work Scot and Pat.


TED Z
.

[frankbmd]

Did the Elite Eleven ever play the Four Horsemen?

I'm just guessing that the odds would have been 11 to 4.

[gsgutow]

Seller confirmed the back was 150.

Thanks for the input and feedback.

[RCMcKenzie]

I guess the cloak & dagger aspect of the hobby makes it more fun in some ways. "New discoveries" are interesting, but they are often debunked as just a mix-up or a hoax.
I am surprised another shoe never dropped on the "Black Swamp Find" as I've always found that to be "unbelievable" in the most literal sense of the term. Maybe it's just because I live in Houston, and with all the humidity, that's not what paper looks like here after 100 years..Rob

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Did the Elite Eleven ever play the Four Horsemen?

I'm just guessing that the odds would have been 11 to 4.

Don't know the answer to that, but The Magnificent Seven would've taken the Elite Eleven in no time.


Steve

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Don't know the answer to that, but The Magnificent Seven would've taken the Elite Eleven in no time.


Steve

I'll see your Magnificent Seven and raise you a Dirty Dozen

[brianp-beme]

I think the real question is as follows: The Dirty Dozen or Cheaper By The Dozen--which one would require more laundry loads?

Brian

[Topnotchsy]

I'm a newbie to early 1900's vintage who would love to learn more. I've tried to follow what is going on in this thread but there are a ton of terms I'm not familiar with and references to cards that I've never heard of. If anyone can translate what's going on in this thread, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

[swarmee]

Sure, here's a wrapup for newbies to vintage collecting:
1) The card being discussed is from the T206 White Borders set which has 524 different card fronts, covering about 200 different players. Some players, like Hal Chase, have up to 5 different pictures on the front of the cards.
2) The cards were printed by about 20 different brands, and each put their own logo on the back of the card. Some players have 2 or 3 possible backs, some have 15 or so. Some people make a collecting career of trying to get their favorite with every possible back they came on.
3) Some of those companies also made multiple print runs of the cards, during the 1909 season (150 series), 1910 (350 series), and 1911 (460 series). Each of those years may have been printed by a different factory, this one specifically being Factory 30
4) This front picture of Karger has never been seen with the specific back (Sweet Caporal 350 / Factory 30). That's why the original poster (OP) was so excited. If he has a unique card from 1910, it might be worth hundreds or even thousands if real.
5) The OP was mistaken, since the site he bought the card from, posted a picture of the wrong back with his front. So he did not actually have an unknown card, he had a regular common version of the card.

That's the basics of it.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Sure, here's a wrapup for newbies to vintage collecting:
1) The card being discussed is from the T206 White Borders set which has 524 different card fronts, covering about 200 different players. Some players, like Hal Chase, have up to 5 different pictures on the front of the cards.
2) The cards were printed by about 20 different brands, and each put their own logo on the back of the card. Some players have 2 or 3 possible backs, some have 15 or so. Some people make a collecting career of trying to get their favorite with every possible back they came on.
3) Some of those companies also made multiple print runs of the cards, during the 1909 season (150 series), 1910 (350 series), and 1911 (460 series). Each of those years may have been printed by a different factory, this one specifically being Factory 30
4) This front picture of Karger has never been seen with the specific back (Sweet Caporal 350 / Factory 30). That's why the original poster (OP) was so excited. If he has a unique card from 1910, it might be worth hundreds or even thousands if real.
5) The OP was mistaken, since the site he bought the card from, posted a picture of the wrong back with his front. So he did not actually have an unknown card, he had a regular common version of the card.

That's the basics of it.

Thanks!

[brianp-beme]

And then there was a bunch of silly stuff at the end that had absolutely nothing to do with T206 cards.

Brian

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Sure, here's a wrapup for newbies to vintage collecting:
1) The card being discussed is from the T206 White Borders set which has 524 different card fronts, covering about 200 different players. Some players, like Hal Chase, have up to 5 different pictures on the front of the cards.
2) The cards were printed by about 20 different brands, and each put their own logo on the back of the card. Some players have 2 or 3 possible backs, some have 15 or so. Some people make a collecting career of trying to get their favorite with every possible back they came on.
3) Some of those companies also made multiple print runs of the cards, during the 1909 season (150 series), 1910 (350 series), and 1911 (460 series). Each of those years may have been printed by a different factory, this one specifically being Factory 30
4) This front picture of Karger has never been seen with the specific back (Sweet Caporal 350 / Factory 30). That's why the original poster (OP) was so excited. If he has a unique card from 1910, it might be worth hundreds or even thousands if real.
5) The OP was mistaken, since the site he bought the card from, posted a picture of the wrong back with his front. So he did not actually have an unknown card, he had a regular common version of the card.

That's the basics of it.

Very well said. I go into many threads and don't fully understand what is going on. This is a great way to sum this up and I certainly learned a few new things.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Very well said. I go into many threads and don't fully understand what is going on. This is a great way to sum this up and I certainly learned a few new things.

Hi Eric

Check-out this thread if you are interested in more detailed info regarding these particular T206 cards.

" Reprising the T206 "Elite 12"......show them, if you have any of them "

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=elite+8


TED Z
.