WOW! T206 Wagner PSA graded.

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Posted By: dan mckee

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5167462479&fromMakeTrack=true

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Posted By: barrysloate

The good news is the seller is honest enough to say it is a reprint. The bad news is where did he get the holder and label? Neither are PSA authentic. Am I naive or am I missing something? Can anyone holder a reprint and get a PSA label?

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Posted By: jackgoodman

a slabbed Wagner at the Hollywood Park show in a dealer case- but the label stated "reprint". I think it was a PSA holder (not absolute) and thought that it was "great" that they were now slabbing reprints. Did anyone else see it?

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's fine- but this holder doesn't say reprint. Enormous difference.

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Posted By: dave

i looked on psa's website and the serial number on the psa label is in the data base

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Posted By: David Vargha

He is saying that the label is bogus. The slab was cracked out and the fake card was put in there.

According to the PSA Certification Database, certification number 09061520 is defined as the following:

CARD INFORMATION
Year: 1911
Brand:
Player: HONUS WAGNER
Variety: N/A
Grade: 1




DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

But someone along the food chain is destined to be bamboozled and buy this card as real for a bargain price. How can PSA put this kind of label on a card? I'm still missing something.

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Posted By: steve k

Very scary isn't it? The seller is honest but I'm not so sure about the people bidding on it. Whoever did this made it look very real but didn't seem to do a good copying job of the PSA "hologram" on the back of the label. Of course they're going to quickly learn to just copy the front of the label, bust open a cheap PSA $5 card and seperate and paste the back hologram to the copied front label. Again - very scary...PSA is going to have to take steps with the front of their label similar to the way the government has changed the currency to help thwart counterfeiters.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Guys,

the printing font on the label is WAY WRONG.

Look at ANY PSA label and you will see that they use a simple typestyle.

Now look at the Bogus Honus and you will see that the words "Honus Wagner" appear as if they were typed from a typewriter.

I don't think anyone with any sense would ever believe that this was a REAL PSA card.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

COMPARE:

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

My Wagner was slabbed by a crook over 5 years ago! (Alan Hagar)

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I bet this card gets the heave ho by ebay real soon. If PSA is going to have an error (which they made) of Heine Wagner (labeled Honus) pulled from ebay I'm fairly certain that they will have this fake one pulled. If they have any sense at all they will press charges against the seller and ensure that everyone knows that they have taken these measures. Anything less would be allowing an infringement of a great magnitude to further tarnish their already weakening image. I wish nothing bad for the seller but this shows a lack of common sense.

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Posted By: HonestWagner

..but that one takes the cake.

Altered, Reprint, graded by Hagar...what a trilogy ...and waste of plastic

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Posted By: Brian Daniels

the above collector/dealers forgot about high school typing or they just do not look at their PSA labeled cards a lot or they would see the font is clearly not the same. Did you post your Wagner on the CU chat board? ; )

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Posted By: steve k

No one here can know for certain that this font was never used. I have seen subtle differences in the fonts between older graded and newer graded PSA cards. But having the right font isn't even the point here. The next scammer/counterfeiter could easily change the font.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Also keep in mind that while experienced collectors like ourselves recognized instantly that the font size is wrong, how will the guy who is relatively new to the hobby who thinks he is getting a bargain on a Wagner be protected? It's the beginner who is going to get scammed, not the veteran, and I think PSA would go ballistic if they saw this. That label is outright fraud.

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Posted By: Anonymous

...PSA never used that font....ever!

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Posted By: Pete

Hi board members,

I have been following this board on and off for about a year now and have learned so much, and for that I tank you ALL. I saw this post and finally decided to dive into pool with you all. I am not an expert by any means when it comes to spotting reprints etc. When I first saw some posts here about the goudey reprints I had to run to my Ruth and iron horse and look for the signs after I was able to verify they were real I thought about all the bids I had lost and that for all I know MY LOSING was probably the best luck I have had in a while LOL, so now I am more educated and would ask the seller before I bought anything of real value again. All this trimming, bleaching, and card restoring just leaves one to think eBay is mine field. Collecting through the late 70's early 80's as a kid left us with only having to look for magic marker around our 1971 topps edges. Then came the Pete Rose rookie reprints and Don Mattingly rookies to boot. I have seen a lot and now even though this seller is honest, the whole concept is not. Selling a gun to a maniac when you suspect he is a maniac does not leave your hands clean after he kills someone. Also having a printing press in your garage counterfeiting money, just because you give a million $$$ fake cash to your friend and telling him its fake does not make that right either. The card is a fake, the holder is a fake, the label is a fake, and psa has the number in the database so that makes it what maybe real? NO. Someone out there who has a real Wagner that paid for it and the grading is now being exploited, if PSA kills that number than what happens to him? Think about this and I feel you will be concerned.... You folks have posted numerous pictures of your cards in good faith between friends; you have spent tons of cash to get things graded. What is to stop someone from recording all those numbers, producing fake labels and then selling cards like this using your good PSA number? One person on this board talked about the typeface being wrong, that is child splay to correct. I am sure that the equipment psa uses to print those labels is nothing special. There are several color printers on the market that could color match the label and any designer could match the font. I do not know what anyone can do to stop things like this but as you are all seeing before your eyes it has been done. My guess is that we are going to see more with lesser value cards that few would question its authenticity. At this point what real assurance do you have that a PSA graded card is the real deal, knowing the cases can be opened, the database can be cross referenced and labels can be reprinted. Another – for Grading and + for the card show and dealer.



Thank You,
Pete

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Posted By: steve k

For those "experts" here who "know it all" about the history of PSA fonts, and anyone else - if the label is completely counterfeit and wasn't copied, then how would you duplicate the barcode? Or does the counterfeiter just generate a random barcode figuring nobody is going to check that, that a potential buyer is only going to check the certification number? Also, is there some way on the internet to check out if a barcode is accurate/real or not? One thing is for certain, if PSA doesn't develop a solution for this problem, then buying expensive cards off of ebay could be rendered obsolete, except for dealers with the most impeccable of reputations.

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Posted By: Pete

There is an actual group of barcode fonts that can create a valid barcode that will be read by a barcode scanner. I believe that all barcodes are in the form of somekind of standardization for inventory purposes like at the grocerystore they can make their own for the isles etc. I do know this much, in a small amout of time with a computer and and a decent color printer a psa replica tag could be made that would have all the needed characteristics to pass a visual inspection and a database inquiry could leave one to beleive they were looking at the card that psa registered. Once someone cracked a legit psa case slipped that in and a phoney card, now you have a huge problem. From what I am reading about fonts etc not being the same over the years creates an even bigger mess, or yet has psa been using the same font consistently for years, and these cards with different fonts have been scams all along ? The only people who can really know the answer to font consistancy are working for PSA, The rest of us may have just assumed all along that these minor diff are just PSA variations and not an scam. This I would like to know the answer to. I am currently looking at all my Psa cards, escepially lower gradeded once that no one would have a desire to scam ( i do not own a wagner LOL) and honestly they so far are all the same. If I find an 8 that looks like a 6 and has a diff font, i might start to cry.



Pete

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Posted By: Pete

I just looked at 25 psa graded cards I have, They have been collected over the years as I have never sent 1 card to them for grading, so I feel that it is a pretty good cross ref of time and grades. RESULTS: 23 Identical to each other 2 identical to each other all have same font used but the 2 buddies are not as bold as the other 23 that all match each other all are 1950s and 60s graded 3-8. I would love to here some of your results.



Pete

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Posted By: davidcycleback

That card labelled altered reprint is funny. If I was a grader and someone asked for his altered, grade poor reprint to be entombed and labelled as an altered, grade poor reprint, I'd have one question: "Why?"

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think once counterfeiters learn how duplicate a holder, label, and barcode without it being readily detected (and that day may not be far away) the hobby will have to be overhauled completely. That Wagner card is one of the most dangerous things I have seen in this hobby.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

I'm sorry for all those who really believe that this card is PSA graded.

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

No-one but ASA would slab the card at that time. Only Alan Hagar. Why? Because I was impressed with the amount of time and effort that was used to try to fool someone. Didn't fool me. That's why I had it slabbed "Altered Reprint".

"Reprint" was completely removed. No trace edges at all even under high magnification. Burn marks, scuffs, creases, everything to make the person think that it was a true T206. If you saw the card, you'd agree. Someone took a lot of time trying to make it look good.

When showing off my T206 box collection to others, I use the Wagner card to show them which cards came in the boxes. Never had the card slabbed to fool anyone!

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Posted By: David Vargha

Are standard in Microsoft Word's envelope printing function. I'm sure that it wouldn't be hard to find them elsewhere with a quick search on Google.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Morrie

I'm pretty confident that label has been photoshopped. If you take the image and blow it up, the pixelation doesn't look right compared to other blown-up PSA labels. The discoloration around the letters is more consistent with inserted text blocks than with text printed onto a sheet of paper. It looks like the original label information was whited out (the white is way too clean) and the new text inserted.

I don't like PSA, but I think there's a good chance that this is an altered image and not their fault. Someone did their homework in the PSA cert database, found a good number, and doctored up this slab.

The other possibility is that the slab was cracked open and a photoshopped label placed inside it; there does seem to be a lot of frosting along its left edge.

Maybe he is telling the truth and he bought it this way. If so, he got ripped off, and he's about to return the favor to someone else.

Morrie

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Posted By: petecld

To Steve K:

I've been around this hobby since the days BEFORE PSA and they never used this font.


I think you guys are giving the forger way too much credit. It would take 10 minutes at the most to scan a PSA label on a computer - barcode and all - erase the copy, type in the copy you want and print it out. Then cut out an drop into an opened PSA slab and reseal as best you can. Chances are the seller was the one who did this but that is just specualtion.

Did a PSA 1 Wagner get sold recently? I'll bet if you find the catalog you'll find the real slab where the PSA label was scanned from and I'll bet the barcodes and cert. number will all match.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The question is is for what honest purpose would someone be willing to pay over $400 for this item? $5 or $10 on a lark I could see, but hundreds of dollars an item represented as a cheap reprint doesn't sound so wholesome.

Also, I would think that tampering/forging a PSA holder with card like this may in and of itself be a crime. Advertising that the music or software you are selling is illegally pirated doesn't make selling illegally pirated music or software legal. It just makes it easier for you to be convicted.

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Posted By: David Vargha

It is on an ad on the back of the February SMR magazine.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I am the under bidder on this sham of an auction. I bid on it because ebay will send me an email telling me why the auction was removed. There is no way that this auction is going the distance.

It wouldn't be difficult to reproduce the label at all. My guess is that it would be fairly easy to do so. It is simplistic at best. Three colors (small red border, white back ground and black lettering and white if you count the PSA name at the top of the label).

PSA will have to do something about this or else it opens them up to being a target for anyone to do this. Basically it can/will damage (what's left of) their reputation.

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Posted By: John B

The auction should have been pulled immediately. The description is way too vague and it tries to wiggle out of any liability. The seller can't even vouch for the authenticity of the holder.

Besides hurting PSA, it also cheapens Ebays brand. For rare and expensive items (especially something as famous as a T206 Wagner), there should be more safeguards in place to put one up for auction.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Ebay doesn't care about anything as long as the $$$$ are coming in. They blatantly allow fraud on their site and protect it! If you write a bidder to tell them that what they are bidding on is a doctored fake, ebay will boot you for auction interference.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Among the bizarre things here is that the seller is disclosing the card is a reproduction yet the bidding is still at $460 with five days to go. That's a lot of money to pay for something worth zero, and that's why I think it is so dangerous. The profile of the person who would spend good money on this is not the veteran collector who has years of hobby experience and spends time on the network54 board sharing information. It's the uninformed person who thinks the card is still worth a great deal, and if there is someone willing to pay $460 (and it will certainly go higher) who's to say there isn't someone willing to pay 5K, 10K, or even more. There is a perception that it has been examined by an authenticator, and while we all know it is bogus, there are people out there who can be preyed upon. It is very deceptive, and I think it is too simplistic to write it off as an easy to spot fake. For this board, yes; for a novice collector, it's trouble with a capital "T".

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Posted By: Dennis W.

First off I agree with Barry when he says how dangerous this item is to the hobby. Next a few observations from both a software engineer/graphics designer (15+ years) perspective and that of a collector.

The label, the reverse of the label and the hologram would be a snap to reproduce exactly. I was tempted to describe exactly how I'd do it then I realized I could be creating a blueprint for any dishonest lurker. So I won't. The real problem with this is the holder. I really don't think this is a crack job. Those things are impossible to open without damaging the plastic. The equipment needed to slab cards cost thousands, so I doubt anybody went out and paid that to slab reprints. Also, I'm confident it's not a PSA holder. If you look at the "tabs" around the perimeter of the slab it don't match the scan that Hal posted of a real PSA slab.

My conclusion is that someone that works for one of the lesser known grading companies slabbed that for somebody for $100 or two maybe after hours on the sly.

The only thing that would have been more "dangerous" would have been if they did it for a lesser value expensive card that wouldn't draw as much attention. A PSA 9 Cobb portrait for example, that they didn't admit was a reprint. Scary stuff.

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Posted By: barrysloate

When you say it would cost thousands of dollars to get the equipment to properly seal holders, keep in mind that that money could be recouped by selling one card. That too is a scary thought.

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Posted By: dennis

is the seller must have been notified by ebay to end auction,or face the wrath of the slabbing gods.