For those who fear the demise of the collectibles market may be near...

[BlueDevil89]

For those who fear the demise of the collectibles market may be near...take heart! - No economic worries here!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100222/...an_first_issue

[JP]

Neither seller or buyer was known....sounds like the same old crap that dealers do all of the time to tout their own cards and drive up the price. I don't believe a word of it.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It might be true, that is the Wagner of the comic world, the drummer for system of a down was shocked when he got his for 317,000 last year and was really happy about it thinking it would go much higher, so if two people really went after this one wouldn't take much to get to a cool mill. Of course I'm sure shilling goes on in the comic world as well...........

[barrysloate]

Assuming it's true, and it's certainly possible it is, it only proves that the high end of the market is alive and well. That comic book would be among the handful of best in the world.

Most collectors would be more concerned how the $100-1000 end of the market is doing. That's the range where a great many transactions take place.

[Section103]

I spent some time last night scratching my head about one simple thing - the comic's encased just like any other PSA/Beckett/SGC graded card. Now, I understand that this is the "holy grail" [/over-used cliche] of comic books and its not intended to be read or handled, but there's a fundamental flaw that I just cant get myself past - and it's that you cant READ the BOOK. I know plenty of people bemoan not being able to "touch" a graded card, but dang, at least you can still see essentially every aspect of the card. I know I need to get over it, but it just sticks in my craw.......

[mark evans]

I agree with Barry. Even if the sale is true, I don't think it says much about the strength of the collectibles market across the board.

Mark

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Section103

I spent some time last night scratching my head about one simple thing - the comic's encased just like any other PSA/Beckett/SGC graded card. Now, I understand that this is the "holy grail" [/over-used cliche] of comic books and its not intended to be read or handled, but there's a fundamental flaw that I just cant get myself past - and it's that you cant READ the BOOK. I know plenty of people bemoan not being able to "touch" a graded card, but dang, at least you can still see essentially every aspect of the card. I know I need to get over it, but it just sticks in my craw.......

yeah - it does seem strange to encase a book -
BUT
there are reprints available if what you want to do is read the comic.

this is a collectible / investment..... and is being certified in a certain condition and being preserved in that case.

If I was a collector - I would have no problem with grading for my key comics.

And, if I was a buyer - I would be looking for graded examples.

[whycough]

collectors often buy a cheap copy to read and keep the high end one slabbed--or you can remove it and be very careful as you handle it and resubmit when you want (saving the slip would be in order)

[barrysloate]

Comic books were made using very cheap paper. Handling them repeatedly would damage them over the long haul. If I owned a $1 million Superman comic I'd shell out a couple of bucks for a reprint and read that. I know it's frustrating but you're better off keep them out of human hands.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Comic books were made using very cheap paper. Handling them repeatedly would damage them over the long haul. If I owned a $1 million Superman comic I'd shell out a couple of bucks for a reprint and read that. I know it's frustrating but you're better off keep them out of human hands.

That's exactly why I leave my Gutenberg Bible in the drawer and pull out my Kindle instead, when I need a dose of The Lord.

[barrysloate]

I use my Gutenberg as a doorstop...but I definitely won't read it without wearing white gloves.

[scooter729]

Ironically, I was just in the Harvard library this morning (I work at the school) and was looking at their copy of the Gutenberg bible. It has its own room in the library - impressive!

[danc]

Talking to a few comic book people, they believe that this sale is in fact legitimate.

This is the nicest copy of this comic book that has been offered publicly in the last 15 years. I believe (I could be wrong), that there are twenty slabbed copies around (most restored) and there are some wealthy collectors out there (Jerry Seinfeld?) who look at is as an investment.

It's no different than the T206 Wagner as far as it's impact on the hobby.

As far as slabbing goes, it's mixed on whether collectors like it but as noted above, pages are brittle and there are books that issue complete reproductions that are readily available at book stores.

DanC

[Jewish-collector]

I'm sure there are a bunch of wealthy comic book collectors that easily afford it. It would not suprise me if Steve Geppi of Baltimore bought it for his pop culture museum.

http://www.geppismuseum.com/

[barrysloate]

As Seinfeld watchers know Jerry is a huge Superman fan...about half the episodes have a reference to Superman. I also thought of him as the possible buyer.

[rman444]

Originally Posted by danc

Talking to a few comic book people, they believe that this sale is in fact legitimate.

This is the nicest copy of this comic book that has been offered publicly in the last 15 years. I believe (I could be wrong), that there are twenty slabbed copies around (most restored) and there are some wealthy collectors out there (Jerry Seinfeld?) who look at is as an investment.

DanC

The sale is legit.

There are a total of 42 CGC slabbed Action #1's in the pop report. Of the 42, 16 are restored.

There is 1 graded higher than this 8.0, which is an 8.5. This 8.0 has not hit the CGC population reports yet, so there are actually at least 43 copies slabbed.

[JP]

Originally Posted by rman444

The sale is legit.

There are a total of 42 CGC slabbed Action #1's in the pop report. Of the 42, 16 are restored.

There is 1 graded higher than this 8.0, which is an 8.5. This 8.0 has not hit the CGC population reports yet, so there are actually at least 43 copies slabbed.

None of that supports the statement that the sale is legit. I can tell you the Wagner pop report if you'd like, but it doesn't make all Wagner auction sales legit.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by JP

None of that supports the statement that the sale is legit. I can tell you the Wagner pop report if you'd like, but it doesn't make all Wagner auction sales legit.

personally....
If rman444 believes the sale was legit / enough to post that it was legit.... I believe him.

[JP]

Originally Posted by bijoem

personally....
If rman444 believes the sale was legit / enough to post that it was legit.... I believe him.

Why? Unless he himself is the buyer of the comic, what information does he have beyond all of us? Believing something has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing something.

[slidekellyslide]

I thought I read in my local paper today (yes, the actual paper edition that gets thrown on my porch in the morning ) that the buyer was a high profile collector in New York. That probably fits a few high profile collectors, but it may just be Jerry Seinfeld.

[JP]

Does Seinfeld even have a history of collecting ANYTHING in this hobby? I know that like Leno he is a car collector, but I've never heard of him owning any sort of collectible merchandise. Is this all just speculation because he likes Superman?

[barrysloate]

Yes, it's pure speculation. We only know two relevant facts: Seinfeld loves Superman, and he's worth nearly a billion dollars. Based on that, we speculated he could easily afford the comic if he wanted it. That doesn't mean he did buy it, or even if he wanted to buy it. We simply guessed it might be him.

[JP]

We also know that Jerry is a comic and the Superman that sold for $1 million was a comic. Comic - comic. Coincidence?

I'm sticking with my guess that no transaction ever took place...I'm a cynic by heart. And all of the Mastro shenanigans have me doubting every sale...

[barrysloate]

Well I agree with you on that. I pretty much don't believe anything I hear either. But some of the things I doubt do end up being true.

[JP]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well I agree with you on that. I pretty much don't believe anything I hear either. But some of the things I doubt do end up being true.

Barry, I doubt that...

[terjung]

Originally Posted by bijoem

personally....
If rman444 believes the sale was legit / enough to post that it was legit.... I believe him.

I'm with you, Joe. I would tend to believe Richard as well when he makes a statement like that. He knows quite a bit more about comics than I do.

Don't get me wrong... I can be a cynic as well. It is just that when I hear someone with credibility come out with a statement like that, it tends to lend legitimacy.

The question that I might ask related to the pop report is how many of those are regrades due to pressing?

[JP]

Richard said "the sale is legit" but didn't provide any evidence or support to back up that statement. He gave no reason for me to believe it, so why should I blindly follow along? Because he knows about comics? The person who knows most about comics in the world may not have any idea whether a particular transaction took place...

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by terjung

I'm with you, Joe. I would tend to believe Richard as well when he makes a statement like that. He knows quite a bit more about comics than I do.

Don't get me wrong... I can be a cynic as well. It is just that when I hear someone with credibility come out with a statement like that, it tends to lend legitimacy.

The question that I might ask related to the pop report is how many of those are regrades due to pressing?

Pressing is rampant in comics, but I don't think anyone has the cajones to press a copy of Action 1.

I tend to agree with you guys as well. Richard knows a lot about comics and I will take his word over someone coming out of nowhere to question the legitimacy of the sale. On the other hand, if JP has first hand knowledge or is somehow connected to Metro or Comic Connect, then he should let us know.

[rman444]

JP - you are right. I cannot provide any proof to you that the transaction took place.

Regarding pressing, I believe that this is a phenomenon that has really caught on over the past few years and mostly affects two types of comics:

1) Those that are already high grade and cannot get into a higher numerical holder due to slight waviness/bending of the surface. An example of a comic that would fit this category would be a 9.6 that is pressed to get into a 9.8 holder.

2) Those that are poorly miswrapped or curled under, where the bend of the book is not along the spine and staples. Comics that fit this category are typically golden age or early silver age. There will often be enough faults on these books that pressing to make them lay straight may not even increase their technical grade - they would however present much better.

I cannot even guess how many Action #1 books have been cracked out, pressed, and then resubmitted, but if any have, I would imagine that it would be a very small number.

[JP]

Originally Posted by rman444

JP - you are right. I cannot provide any proof to you that the transaction took place.

Interesting, then do you mind telling us why you said "the sale is legit" so definitively? Why do you feel that a transaction far above any previous comic sale might be real? I caught some flack for questioning your statement without support, but I think it is important that we don't support what may inevitably prove to be market manipulation on the part of auction houses....

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by JP

Interesting, then do you mind telling us why you said "the sale is legit" so definitively? Why do you feel that a transaction far above any previous comic sale might be real? I caught some flack for questioning your statement without support, but I think it is important that we don't support what may inevitably prove to be market manipulation on the part of auction houses....

I demand that Richard provide proof by posting a photograph of himself with his new Action #1 and a copy of today's newspaper.

[terjung]

Would you similarly question Brockelmann if he stated that a sale of a high end E107 was legit? I certainly wouldn't. I would tend to believe him - even if he were unwilling or unable to demonstrate proof. The fact is that very high end collectors are often intentionally secretive about their purchases and collections. This may be for fear of theft, insurance, or for any litany of reasons. Rarely do such high end collectors care to share about their purchases or advertise that they made them. I realize that this breeds the question of whether a specific sale was legit - especially when it is outside the realm of what would be expected. In this case, the sales of lesser conditioned versions of Action #1 sell for sick money. I guess I don't know why one of the two nicest conditioned and unrestored versions of this extremely sought-after comic wouldn't be expected to go for sick money as well.

[Rob D.]

Richard,

Please provide proof that you are, indeed, Richard.

[JP]

You guys aren't paying attention. Richard already admitted that he didn't know the sale was legit. And that would also mean he didn't buy it.

Just because someone is an expert in a field doesn't mean they know the particulars of every high-end transaction.

To address your final statement, if Brockelmann said an E107 sale was legit, you would assume that he was associate with the transaction in some respect. Richard obviously has no association whatsoever with the sale of the Superman comic. Why are so many arguments on these boards filled with huge logic holes?

[terjung]

You missed the point of the analogy. Scott would not have to be party to such a sale in order to know that it happened, nor would I require him to prove his knowledge of it. Regardless, this argument is pointless. I tend to believe that the sale happened, in part, but certainly not solely due to Richard's statement. You are well within your rights to remain skeptical. /debate

Anybody like vintage baseball cards? I hear that cardboard pictures of dead guys who played baseball are highly collectible and sometimes sell for a mint.

[JP]

Originally Posted by rman444

JP - you are right. I cannot provide any proof to you that the transaction took place.

You might have missed this the first time... If Richard had said he "knew" the sale was legit, then that wouldve been enough for me.

[danc]

Thanks for setting me straight on the CGC Population. DanC = Lazy, sometimes.

People use collectibles of this nature as investments. $1 million with this comic book or $1 million in Stocks. There are a lot of famous comic book collectors like movie actor Freddy Prinze Jr., former Skid Row lead singer Sebastian Bach, Jerry Seinfeld is a Superman freak and Nicolas Cage...you can scratch from that list of people who could afford the book.

IMO, I don't doubt the authenticity of the sale.Heritage just sold a nickel for $3.7 million and they have a Detective Comics in the same shape as the AC#1 and it's at $500,000 (w/ BP) with a day and half to go. Quality items in impeccable condition bring incredible mullah.

DanC

[teetwoohsix]

I think Rich V. brought up a good point,in post #5, about the comic book being slabbed.I know nothing about comic book slabbing,but he made a good point-with a slabbed card,you can still see everything about the card.With the comic,you see the front and back cover,so essentially you are putting 100% faith in the slabbers reputation-you have NO WAY to really know if any of the pages inside have been restored,altered,etc.

Don't get me wrong-I understand the reason for slabbing it-but unless you were the one who submitted it for grading,you would have to wonder about this,wouldn't you?

And we all know that no TPG is flawless............

[terjung]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I think Rich V. brought up a good point,in post #5, about the comic book being slabbed.I know nothing about comic book slabbing,but he made a good point-with a slabbed card,you can still see everything about the card.With the comic,you see the front and back cover,so essentially you are putting 100% faith in the slabbers reputation-you have NO WAY to really know if any of the pages inside have been restored,altered,etc.

Don't get me wrong-I understand the reason for slabbing it-but unless you were the one who submitted it for grading,you would have to wonder about this,wouldn't you?

And we all know that no TPG is flawless............

Interesting point. I always thought it was a bit weird to have a book slabbed in that you couldn't see the interior pages, but only thought about the lack of being able to read it and hadn't considered the TPG portion of it. With our beloved baseball cards, we often judge and opine as to whether something is accurately graded and sometimes even have "guess the grade" threads. With comics, you truly can't do much judging of the interior pages - except possibly count the number of pages from the edge (not sure how possible that even is). I wonder how stringently the interior pages are graded. For example, we know that SGC is tough on paper loss on the cards. I wonder how printing dots or registration issues (for example) may affect the grading if it were only present on the interior pages. Once it is slabbed, you may not even know the reason for the downgrade. A pristine front and back cover and binding could potentially deserve a much lower grade based on interior pages and you'd never know it unless it were specifically delineated or cracked out of its slab.

All that to say this... I think it may be tougher to "buy the comic not the slab" in that world due to this issue. Perhaps I am wrong though and will be enlightened.

[teetwoohsix]

Exactly Brian-I would be pretty leary about investing 1 mil. into a comic book already slabbed--unless maybe the original owner was the seller,and could vouch for the condition on the inside--no,wait-he's trying to make a mil.......

I'll stick to the cards...............

[rman444]

Originally Posted by JP

You might have missed this the first time... If Richard had said he "knew" the sale was legit, then that wouldve been enough for me.

Actually, I did say that, and it wasn't good enough for you. So I said that I didn't know, hoping that you would let it pass. Yet that didn't seem to work either, so I think that I will just stop commenting on this subject now

Regarding knowing the condition of the interior of a comic when it is slabbed, CGC will make notations on the label for anything that is more than minor (tape on pages, significant tears or pieces missing, etc). They also note the condition/quality of the pages on the label. For other details that are significant, yet too much to list out on the label, CGC makes grading notes in their database which anyone can request with a phone call and a certification number.

Don't you all wish that PSA and SGC would do the same?

[JP]

Go re-read your post. You said "the sale is legit" without saying whether that was an opinion or statement with inofrmation behind it. You never supported that statement. Then you retracted it completely a few posts later. Make up your mind.

[terjung]

Originally Posted by rman444

They also note the condition/quality of the pages on the label. For other details that are significant, yet too much to list out on the label, CGC makes grading notes in their database which anyone can request with a phone call and a certification number.

Didn't know that they did that. Actually pretty cool (and I guess necessary in this case).

Originally Posted by rman444

Don't you all wish that PSA and SGC would do the same?

Resounding "Yes!"

[JP]

A comic encapsulation where the comic is open to a page where you could see the artwork would be an amazing offering...

[slidekellyslide]

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition when I opened this thread tonight.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by terjung

Would you similarly question Brockelmann if he stated that a sale of a high end E107 was legit?

If Scott B said the sky was purple, I would tend to agree with him . Having met him, I would not want to get in a brou-ha-ha with him. I'm just saying...

[Bicem]

I think the sale is legit. My sources (Richard) tell me that some comic book nerd with way too much money probably bought it.

[olsport]

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition when I opened this thread tonight.

Dan,

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

(can't believe you had to wait 4 hours for this response)

[glynparson]

Ol sport, it is often an investment coupled with the desire to own something that so many want to own. They should not be required to donate this money to anyone they earned it and have every right to spend it as they see fit. I don't understand why its any different for a billionaire to buy a comic like this or you to buy a card for a $100, why don't you donate that money instead of buying that card, or piece of memorobilia, after all that money could have gone to feed a few homeless families. Also I made a couple calls, and I'm waiting for some of the people to get backto me but so far I would have to say the sale is legit. Also people that don't think the best of the best in high demand collectibles are not still bringing enormous ammounts of money are fooling themselves.