If you found vintage cards at a garage sale

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Posted By: Joann

I don't want to hijack the "shrewdest pickup" thread, but it made me think of something I've been meaning to ask.

Suppose you go to a garage sale and there is a shoebox of baseball cards there, mix and match age including both vintage and up through the 1990's, and it was priced for $10. You can see there are maybe a few dozen vintage in the mix, and can immediately tell that they are worth at least a few thousand - say $2,000 or $3,000 give or take. What do you do?

Do you call it to the seller's attention and then make what you think is a fair offer - more than $10 but maybe less that the $2K? By doing so you run the risk that the seller may immediately decide to remove the lot from the sale (including refusing to sell it to you), solely because you made him aware of the fact that they are worth substantially more than $10. If you hadn't said anything, the seller may have only gotten $10 from someone that who knows - may have thrown the vintage away because all they wanted were the 1995 cards?

Or do you pay the $10 so that you own them, and then right there at that time (once the $10 and cards have changed hands) call it to his attention and offer to pay a more reasonable price? Or do you pay the $10 and come back another day without the cards to discuss it? Or do you pay the $10 and never say anything?

Does the answer change if instead of a few thousand dollars it is only a few hundred dollars?

What if instead of $2K or $3K it is more like $20K or $30K?

And... what if you see the T206 Wagner? Now what?

What about if it is one you've never seen before like the Reccius Wagner - sure to be valuable but also unique so difficult to assess value on the spot?

Of course, it goes without saying that if you see the 1977 Topps Oscar Gamble PSA 4 VG/EX you quietly pay the $10 and go exult in your good fortune.

But seriously, when it comes to "finds" is there some approach that will give the seller more than the nominal amount asked while protecting the buyer and allowing at least some gain for having been the one to realize the value and "find" the cards?

Thanks for your input.

Joann

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Posted By: David Vargha

I'd pay the asking price that the seller set.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: James Feagin

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with getting an awesome deal if the seller set the price. Happy Easter all.....

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Posted By: Martin Neal

That, to me, is a very tough question.
At the time I purchased the t206s and t205s referenced in the shrewd buy thread, I had to set a price. I think I really could have bought all 80+ cards for $1200.00 if I had nudged him just a little. He pounced on the $1200.00 offer for the 43 I bought although I was willing to offer more. So I did not feel too guilty about the purchase. At times, I actually feel like kicking myself for not getting them all when I had the chance.

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Posted By: jackgoodman

For those of us that collected before price guides made everyone an expert, didn't we use the knowledge and experience we had taken the time to acquire, to "find" good deals? I don't necessarily think it is our job to educate a seller.

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Posted By: jay behrens

If there is a set price, it's fair game. I regularily scour garage and estate sale for deals to flip on eBay. Now if this same person came to me asking what I thought the value of the cards were, I'd give them an honest answer and decent offer.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Joann

Martin,

I guess that's what I was asking too - from the other thread I could tell you had to kind of tell the seller what you'd pay. Weren't you worried that if you said $1200 he'd get dollar signs in the eyes and pursue selling them elsewhere? It's almost like you would have to keep the fact that the cards were worth more than a few bucks a secret or risk losing the chance to buy them (even though likely the seller would get more from you than from whatever other means he was pursuing).

I have to admit, that if I were selling my lawnmower for $50 and all of a sudden someone came up and said it was a special lawnmower and he'd give me $750 for it, I might slam on the brakes. It might be worth $7500 for all I know if someone came in with an offer like that. (No, I don't have a special lawnmower. lol) So that's why I was wondering if you were worried when you made the offer, or if there was a time that you thought he'd move on once you'd tipped him to the value.

I think that's why my answer would be like the others - at least in the garage sale example - pay the $10 and move on. I might feel guilty about it but anything else might be inviting trouble.

And on the topic of feeling guilty ... does it make a difference if the seller is an obnoxious jerk, versus a nice little old lady that is obviously selling what she has to make ends meet?

J

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

This is an easy one.

Put yourself in the seller's shoes. What would you wish a buyer to do to you if it was switched around? If you set a price way too low on something and a shrewd, more educated buyer came along and knew the value. What would you want him or her to do to/for you?

There's your answer.

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Posted By: Seth B.

I agree that you just pay the seller's quoted price and walk away. He (or she) set a price on those cards that he would be happy walking away with: if someone doesn't value a box of cards more than $5, then they're worth $5 to him. If you value those cards more, then that's your boon.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

You would be comfortable if someone did that to you?

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Posted By: Seth B.

Yes, if I set the price. If only charged five dollars, then that's exactly what they're worth to me, and I'd obviously be perfectly comfortable giving it up for that amount. I mean, I don't think there's a Net54 Garage Sellers board right now with a "Dumbest Deals You Ever Struck" post, nor do I see anyone on our "Shrewdest Deals" thread jumping into to identify themselves as someone at a garage sale that got swindled: they were probably just as happy to get money for those pieces of cardboard. When you sell something, you sell at the value you think appropriate, and if you set that value, you suggest you'll be happy with it.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Seems reasonable to me.

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

I would pay the asking price ask if he had any more if the answer was no i would leave quickly with my treasure. if i made a killing i might stop by the house the next time i was in the area and hand the guy a few extra dollars. If it were a dealer at a card show i would pay the asking price ask if he had any more then leave. if you are going to set up at an event you need to have a little more expertise.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Joann,

I really liked the guy I bought the cards from and maybe I would have offered him less if he had been a jerk but maybe not. He had to travel close to an hour to meet me so I felt that a sale was going to happen regardless. He also had had the Cobb on Ebay listed correctly (it didn't sell) so I felt he was or should have been somewhat knowledgable.

To be honest, I didn't realize the t205s and the Young would grade so high or I may have offered him more.

I actually had a harder time with the Hoblitzell purchase because that guy (the seller) really left some money on the table.

It is sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't and there is probably no set way to appoach a seller. One way to justify it is to tell yourself that if you don't get them the seller may sell them to someone else for less than you are willing to pay.

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

In all honesty, I would probably purchase the cards for the asking price.
But my question is, if this were in a different context and the seller came in to the National or Fort W. show with $10,000 worth of cards, approached Rosen or Bleam and asked $500 for the lot and sold it, I'm sure the responses would be different, right?

Because I have seen threads about this before where dealers are criticized for "ripping off" unsuspecting people. At some point, it is the sellers responsibility to do a little research and see if they just might be sitting on a small gold mine.

Just my opinion.

Mike

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

If the dealer is presented with a $10,000 lot, and asked to make an offer, I think the offer should be a fair one, but if the offer is only $2000, is this still unethical? What if that is all they are willing to pay? The seller still has the right to seek out potential higher offers.

Mike

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Posted By: jay behrens

I have a personal websted that is dedicated to Wild West and Indian cards. Every few months someone will contact me about some cards they found or bought and want to know what they are worth. I've gotten to the point where I will not give estimates of value anymore without getting paid first. All but one has ended up using my knowledge to sell the cards to someone else instead of me. What I do now is charge $50 for the valuation and if I end up buying the cards, that money will refunded.

I don't mind helping people out, but when my hard earned knowledge is being used to make other people money, then I stop sharing. Making offers is also no win situation. The most recent group offered is the perfect example. I got offered a group of N36s (large A&G Indian cards and very rare). The person said his wife bought them for $10 at a garage sale and wanted to know what they were worth and what I would pay for them. The group included a Sitting Bull and offer well over $1k for the 6 cards. The husband agreed to the deal, but the wife got $$$ in her eyes and then found out Antiques Roadshow was coming to town and wanted to wait for them. I told her that my offer was a one time deal. If she went to AR, I would only offer the low end of their estimate. She went to AR and was told they were worth $600-800. She ended up consigning them to an auction house I've never heard of that does not specialize in cards or Native AMerican itmes, so it will be interesting to see if I can get them for even. Now I'm hoping to land this group for under $600. This lady's greed is going to cost her over $1k, but I really can't feel sorry for her. I willing to bet that if I had offered only $100, they would have sold the cards without a second thought, but then I couldn't sleep well doing that.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Several years ago there was an elderly woman who wanted to sell an SF Hess baseball card (forgett the ACC, but the real photo one of Major League players). She said she wouldn't take less than $20 for it. I paid her $800 for it. I later resold it for profit, so we were both happy.

And in case you want to know, she literally kept it in a cabinet drawer.

To me, it depends on the person. If he's a professional dealer who makes his money by setting the prices, there's great no need to alert. It also depends on the pricing difference. If it's a $100 item priced at $40 or even $30, there no concern, in part because at a garage sale people are often just trying to get stuff out the door as they're moving or whatever. However, if it's $10,000 priced at 10 cents, that's a different story.

Garage sales are garage sales. No one goes to a Xerox flyer-stapled-to-a-telephone-pole advertized sale which is comprised of mostly used stuff piled on card tables in someone's oil stained garage and anticipates Tiffany or even Walmart prices. If there is an original Van Gogh with a $2 price tag you should alert the owner, but the sellers are probably well aware that prices are 'garage sale low' and that someone with a good eye can pick up some bargains. Most garage sales are about 'reducing bulk' in the houeshold, and much of the unsold stuff will likely literally be put on the curb or in dumpsters the following week.

I bought a very expensive wieght machine from a guy for like $5. I asked him why he was selling it so cheap. He said he was moving to a tenth story condo downtown, and had no desire to move it. Getting rid of it for $5 was a deal for both of us.

Also, unless you are experienced with selling that item, you may have no real idea of what it would sell for. If you don't sell autographs, you may know that that Ted Williams signed bat with good COA is worth good money but won't know exactly how much. You may not know if you can sell it for $500 or $100. In this case even if it turns out to be worth $500, paying $75 or $50 may have been a fair price at the time for what you know. As we all know, knowledge of book price doesn't mean knowledge of resale value.

Lastly, the vast majority of novices vastly overvalue rather than undeprice their item. For every 1958 Topps Mickey Mantle ExMt priced at $1 (which I've yet to see by the way), there are 103 1958 Topss Micke Mantles grade poor priced at $1,000 ... In practice the more common problem is if and how to break it to a person that he has waaay overpriced an item.

In Seattle, there are dealers and antique store owners who go to all garage sales looking for steals for reseale. They often camp out before the published start time hoping to get first dibs. A few years ago, my mom and her friends had a garage sale in my parent's front yard. It was quality stuff they wanted to get rid of. Things were priced at like $2, $1, 25 cents. One of the known antique dealers brought a fine condition kitchen table with matching chairs with 25 cents price tag to the cash register. He tried to fairly snottily negotiate the price down to 10 cents. My mom told him she wouldn't sell it to him if he offered $100, and asked him to leave. Neither my mom nor I could figure out what was the point of trying to lower the price 15 cents on a 25 cent items.

A seller is always in an advantagous position when he doesn't have to the item. If you have medical bills due next Tuesday, the potential buyer has advantage. Otherwise, if you you tire of a person's intricate negotiations over price, you can simply tell them it's no longer for sale and mean it.

I once had a 'negotiator' who, after email negotiations, ask me what was the lowest price I would sell the bunch of photos for. Innocent me, I gave him the lowest price I would sell them for. After he asked to lower the price $10 more, I told him the photographs were no longer for sale. He asked if that meant he could buy for my previously quoted lowest price, and I said, no, that that meant they were no longer for sale. I was offended enough to abort the sale as I had honestly answered the question he had posed, and he essentially assumed I was lying. I didn't know what the point of a him asking me a question in the first place, and I wasn't interested in negotiating any longer to find out.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Thats great David, do you still have a scan or picture of it ? BTW it would be an N338-2 if a major leaguer.

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Posted By: barry arnold

I'm supposed to be out hiding easter eggs but ran across
David's reflections beginning with the ethical treatment of
the elderly lady and had to sit down and say I AGREE, DAVID.
I also applaud your nuancing of the various angles of the
arguments with cogent delineations.
Many thanks David.
Now back to the pastels of eggs rather than the pastels of
my 206's.

barry

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Posted By: martindl

Andrew, You ask "You would be comfortable if someone did that to you?" - re someone running a garage sale and pricing something at $5 and the buyer not informing them that it was worth much more.

Years ago, I picked up a great antique carved French case-glass center piece for $60 at an antique store. The next week i sold it for $180 to another antique store. In the week between buying it and selling it I did no research. I asked the buyer if she'd give me $180 for the piece and she did. I saw the exact piece i sold sell at auction for $1400 some six months later.

"You would be comfortable if someone did that to you?" - I was very o.k. with what happened. I had and have no malice with the buyer. Their experience and knowledge put them in a position to know that they were being offered a great bargain, because the seller, me, didn't know what they had. Obviously now I wish I had spent the time to figure out what I had and make maximum dollar, but I didn't so, c'est la vie. I did learn a lesson on making sure to know what i'm selling, and i'm sure that lesson has paid me back multifold, especially from a buying perspective.

Bottom line - buyers should feel no remorse for getting bargains when the seller has set a price they're happy with.

btw, i don't think you ever go back to the seller and tell them "oh by the way, that $5 thing was worth $xxx", unless the point of you going back is to share the profits; otherwise its just gloating and self serving.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I go to lots of garage sales...I have never found any prewar cards, but I do find lots of memorabilia and equipment. I'm not about to feel guilty about buying something at a garage sale for a set price. What's the point in going to a garage sale if you aren't searching for bargains? If someone priced it then that's what they want for it...if something's not priced I will ask what they want for it. My brother got me a load of bats at a garage sale last year for $20 which included a Ty Cobb Louisville Slugger, A Victor Sporting Goods bat, and a Stall & Dean James Delahanty model along with a bunch of other 80-100 year old bats. No guilt here.

About two years ago now I was at a flea market and I bought two pre WW2 gloves from a dealer that sets up at every antique/flea market show in my area...The gloves were $20 each and were definitely a bargain...I asked if he had any other old baseball items and he pulled a bat out of a barrel full of old golf clubs that I hadn't even bothered to look through and right away I saw the Victor Sporting Goods logo...I asked what he wanted for it and he said 5 bucks...I said sold and walked away happy and guilt free.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A man said he had started off as a junk dealer but was now an antiques dealer. When asked how me made the transition, he said "I changed the sign on the store."

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Posted By: RP60

..What if a person comes to you at a card show or shop and have a kick-ass collection that was left to them, and THEY set a super low (uneducated) price?.They give you a story of how much it ment to them, but they needed the quick cash..Then what do you do?.They set the price. Is it still fair game?.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Can god make a rock so large that even he cannot lift it?

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Anson

Wouldn't a Easter Tango Eggs hunt be worthwhile today?

I agree that you should pay what the seller sets the price at. If the item is worth that amount, then it should be fair to both parties. I seriously doubt that you'll find too many T206 Wagners or Youngs at garage sales. Those days are long gone

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Posted By: joe

Buy at the price listed.

Joe

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Posted By: Joe

with my luck (and my conscience) -
I let the old lady know that I think the cards are worth $X amount not her low price.

I then buy them at $X amount, only to find out that they are worthless reprints and the old lady is in Reno spending my money.


I think if I am at a card show and see an uneducated (low) price... I buy without comment.

A garage sale may be different (because the person on the other side of the table does not sell cards for a living).

I do like to sleep at night... so I would say the best solution I could come up with would be to offer to sell those cards for her at a fair price (for a 20% fee resonable?), then offer them up here or on eBay.

I sleep well, make some money, and the old lady makes some money as well.

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

Well,Id take the cards at her price. But before I ran, I'd offer her a plenty for her ugly old lamp.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A practical, dare I say self-serving, reason to raise this person's price, is you will now have a person who will testify to others that you are as honest and honerable a person as there is. She will point her faimly and friends to you when they are looking to sell, as she knows you will give them a fair shake.

The short run is one thing, but, beleive me, in the long run it in your best interests to treat people fairly and honerably. In ten years from now would you rather have the reputation of, say, Rob Lifson or Ken Goldin. You can't cheat 20 old ladies out of money without the rest of the hobby finding out about what type of person you are.

Besides, there are more important things than money. I like money, but I've never felt it was something worth cheating or lying over. If being rich means has to act like an Enron executive, I'd rather be poor.

Duly note that this isn't neccearilly a comment on those who would purchase the garage sale prices at the low price. As earlier noted, garage sale items are typically priced to sell and the sellers often intentionally price things at bargain rate so they can get rid of the stuff. In the case of the vegitarian who inhereted from her grand father a valuable antique stuffed moose head collection, she will be happy to give it for free to a good home. She may have heard that quality moose heads sell for good money, but her goal is to get them out of the house asap. She may have no desire to put them on eBay and can think of 1001 better ways of spending a sunny weekend than packaging moose heads in her basement. In this case, you are not being dishonest or stealing by taking them for free. You are doing the woman a service and on her desired terms. And she'll likely have a big smile as she watches you remove them from her house.

* *

Getting rid of expensive things for free reminds me of the story of my parents friends who got divorced, my dad worked with the husband. The husband went to Yale and liked the 'finer things in life.' When he moved out of the house, he accidentally left behind an expensive bottle of Chateau Laffitte. When the wife had my parents over for dinner she was more than happy to serve her Ex's bottle of wine with the chili, beans on toast or whatever they were eating at the picnic table in the back yard. The wine was totally wasted on my dad, who didn't got to Yale and wasn't into 'the finer things in life.' He later told me the Chateau Lafitte tasted okay, but he didn't think it was much better than wine from a box.

The next Monday at work, my dad saw the husband and said, "Hey Tom, we had dinner at Robin's and she served us a bottle of Chateau Lafitte."

The husband, Tom, thought silently for a moment, then said "Oh, sh*t."

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Posted By: HandsAtNeck

If you enter into a card transaction to generate a profit, your time in finding, acquiring, and selling the cards have to be factored into the equation. Similarly, the time researching and studying the hobby are relevant in assessing whether you are operating profitably.

There is a fine line between bilking little old ladies and generating a reasonable profit. Some feel that because in some transactions you lose money, the way to offset this factor is to maximize your profit when you can.

I resolve this status by not buying cards for resale. But I recognize that others do (otherwise where would I buy cards?). It is interesting how this post is viewed by everyone. Thank you, Joann.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Well I don't think anyone here has to worry about finding a stack of T206's at a garage sale for $5. I don't believe I've ever found a card older than the 1960's at a garage sale ever and I hit a lot of them. I've gone to "garage sales" that advertise baseball cards, but when I get there it's always been a collector/dealer with PRICE GUIDE prices.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I would probably not only not tell the li'l ol' lady she had a Wagner in the box, I would inquire whether she could do a little better on the box. If the seller sets a price on her wares, it is her tough luck if she set a low price; next time do your homework. Sorry to inject a little reality into the debate, but I don't see the need to give up my hard-earned competitive advantage (knowledge) in an arms-length transaction.

I fail to see the difference between the example specified and an ebay seller listing a rarity as a common or in the wrong category. I haven't seen a rush of folks here emailing sellers about those mistakes; I have seen a lot of people crow about the great deals they got that way and a lot of others complaining that deals like that were "outed" before the auction close.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

My thoughts exactly Adam....How many folks here emailed the seller of that t206 card that was missing all the red ink to tell them they had a rare printing error? I mean before he sold it offline?

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Posted By: pat

my 2 cents regarding the garage sale pickup is this:

in general, i try to treat people as i would want them to treat my elderly parents. so if i found a large $ value in cards at a garage sale i would secure the cards by paying their asking price and mention to them that i plan on selling them and when i do if they were worth alot more than their asking price i would chop it with them. in essence i would be looking at it as a consignment considering the dirt cheap initial sale price. this would be under the assumption that the since the sale is at a gagage sale, they arent dealers, who should know better. this isnt against dealers, as i am one. if i sell something dirt cheap by accident, thats my own fault. always keep in mind, "After all is said and done, all we have is our character"!


pat

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Does he live in the Berkeley Hills, or the flatlands? Is he rich or poor? Would I rob a poor man of $5000 worth of cards so I could get them for $10? No, I wouldn't.

Once some people offered me, free, a large box of '69 and '70 Topps. They didn't even want to talk about money. I took them (we had never met, but had worked closely together for several years--whether that makes sense or not). Later, I found out that the cards had belonged to their son who had committed suicide so he didn't have to go to Vietnam(sic). I started sending their daughter, who was working with a tribe of Indians in the west, small regular checks...

During the baseball strike, many people burned their cards, or sold them for $1...I stopped by a garage sale in the Berkeley Hills (rich people), and the folks there told me their son had just sold his entire baseball card collection for $1. I was sorry I missed that one...

It depends on the time, the place, the circumstances and the people involved; how can you answer the question with a simple yes or no?

Bye, cards...

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Posted By: Mike

I will throw in a bit of a curve. What if you wander into an antique store 1500 miles from your home, and stumble on an unbelievable deal? You see something for $40.00, and it is worth a few thousand ? Do you speak up ? Or buy it and leave with a smile ? Lets say the owner is not a little old lady, but a 30 year old fellow.

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Posted By: jay behrens

No curve ball there. That's a big fat pitch down the middle. Antique shops are in the bunsiness to make a profit. If they are selling them for $40, then they are making the largest profit margin they think they can get for item. They made a nice tidy profit based on their purchase price and you walk away with somenthing great at a cheap price. It's win-win all the way around.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Mike

This happened to me in Vermont. And yes, I slept very well that night. No guilt here. The little old lady scenario might be a bit tougher, but sorry, there would be no guilt there either.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

The little old lady scenario is silly anyway....what if she's a little old lady millionaire?

Not every little old lady is destitute.

What if she beat her kids like Joan Crawford?

If I see a bargain on cards I'm taking it without ever looking back.