need help dating a photo

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Posted By: Glenn

I picked up this old UPI wire photo on ebay. Looks like Jimmie Foxx and Mickey Cochrane, but the press notes have been removed from the back, so I can't tell the specific game/date of the photo, and I figured somebody here might be able to help.

Some clues:

Foxx is in a SOX uniform, but Cochrane's still playing, so that limits it to 1936 or 1937. That should help a lot because Cochrane didn't play all that much in those two seasons, but I don't know specifically how many he played against Boston. Going by the home white/road gray rule, it appears this game was played in Detroit. (Also, the Tigers' dugout is along the 1st base line.) Cochrane seems to be wearing a "C". I presume this is for "Captain," but I also presume he was captain in both seasons, so that probably doesn't help. He also has a stars and stripes crest on his left sleeve (from an All-Star game perhaps?). As far as I can tell from the crowd, this was a pretty warm day in Detroit, so we can probably rule out April and September (but I don't have any actual weather reports, so this is just an educated guess). And the most obvious clue: Jimmie Foxx safely reached 3rd at least once that day, but was likely tagged out in a rundown between 3rd and home.



Thanks,
Glenn

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Posted By: Joann

FWIW, definitely Tiger Stadium.

J

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Cochrane, yes.

Foxx, no.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Definately not Foxx. Great photo though.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

UPI was formed in 1958.
United Press (UP) or United Press Association were the earlier names.

UPI sometimes restamped old photos at later dates, but if there only is a UPI stamp that usually indicates it was made by UPI.

Even if with the 'printed later' images, each UPI photo is still limited in number and collectable. UPI owned and had exclusive rights to the negatives, so the images are often nice sharp and clear.

The rule of thumb identifying vintage photos from news services is to look for the stamps of UP, United Press Association, ACME Newspictures, International News Photos (or similar International News names), Bain News Service or George Baine, Pacific & Atlantic, Keystone View (not a complete list). These news services went out of business or changed their name years back and their name can only appear on photos from the 1950s or earlier.

Brown paper caption tags generally are vintage, as the tags were originally brown and took many years to fully change color.

For more more modern wirephotos, if the caption strip is in the image (actually part of the photographic image as opposed to being phyically taped or glued on-- you can see it but can't feel it), the date of the caption is reliably the date the photo was made; ('Associated Press: June 10 1953, NYC: Mickey Mantle steps to the plate...').

If a date is stamped on the back of the photo, that is almost always the date it was stamped. Vintage date stamps are not common but desirable as they help prove age.

I own a collection of Vogue magazine fashion photos. Say what you want about the magazine, but their original 1930s-40 studio photos are usually stamped with photographer's name and the day/month/year the photograph was made. This makes life easy for the person trying to identify and date the photos ... What I find interesting about Vogue magazines from the period is that they credit the photographer and sketch artist for each photo, even in the advertisments. This is most unusual for magazines of the period and must be a comment on their feelings towards the photographer. Almost no 1930s-40s ACME, ACME or UP caption tags list the photographer.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I believe the photo may be from several years later, judging from the arm patch. Although my eyes are bad, it seems to be the patch worn during the 1942 season in honor of our troops during World War II. Check out Marc Okkonen's site on uniforms and see for yourself (buy his book if you haven't already--very handy resource).


http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online_exhibits/dressed_to_the_nines/database_faq.htm

Cochrane was not on either 1936 or 1937 All Star team, and I doubt they would have worn such a patch anyway, at least during the regular season. A Centenial patch was worn in 1939 by all teams, but it looks noticeably different. The only anomoly is that all teams supposedly wore this WWII patch, yet your Boston runner (who facially looks a little like Foxx and who could be in theory, even in 1942) does not appear to have one.

Anyway,if it's from 1942 this would most likely make your catcher Birdie Tebbetts, and frankly, I see the resemblence.

Compare: http://cgi.ebay.com/Birdie-by-Birdie-Tebbetts-James-Morrison-2002_W0QQitemZ4574761889QQcategoryZ378QQcmdZViewIt em

and http://cgi.ebay.com/BIRDIE-TEBBETTS-Printed-Signature-Picture_W0QQitemZ8761639425QQcategoryZ53QQcmdZView Item

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Posted By: Mike H

That isn't Foxx or Cochran

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Posted By: davidcycleback

That's a good answer, Mike. We were missing the forrest for the trees.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Looking closer, it doesn't look anything like Cochrane either.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Looks too skinny. Still, compare his mug from the 1939-46 exhibit to the photo, changing that Jimmy Cagney smile to a "whoops, I flocked up" look.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

having looked at it more painstakingly, I can say with some certainty that it is not Redd Foxx and Johnny Cochrane in that photo. Case closed.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Looks like Birdie Tebbetts and Johnny Pesky to me.

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Posted By: barry arnold

your original message title reminded me of that Robin Williams flick involving
Williams practically falling in love with photos,i.e.
dating or 'going out' with photos.

sorry

i'll let you get back to what matters.

best

barry

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Posted By: Bob W

The catcher may not be a Tiger, based on the sleeve patch,the Tigers didn't have stripes on the stirrups or a stripe on the sleeve. The catcher may be with the Indians.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

This picture presents an interesting puzzle. According to the Hall of Fame site, the wartime patch was used from 1942 to 1945. But I have a 1953 Bowman Enos Slaughter wearing the patch. And he was serving in the war from 1943-45. Is the picture on his card really 11 years old? He sure looks like a veteran in it. As for the catcher, I find it hard to believe he's wearing a Tigers' uniform. Let's say for instance it is 1942. We know the catcher is wearing a home uniform with trim on the sleeves. And he's not on the Red Sox. And he's not on the Browns, because they wore white hats. And we also know it's not the Yankees or Senators, because they had no trim on their sleeves. That leaves the White Sox, the Indians and the A's. Does the stadium pictured match any of those ballparks? I certainly can't tell. I guess it's possible the catcher is a National League player, but without bunting in the background, I find it hard to believe it's an All-Star game. I'm curious how this puzzle turns out. It's a great photo ...

By the way, if you've never looked at the Hall of Fame uniform data base, you're in for a treat!

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Posted By: Bob W

The catcher is on the Indians, you can see a part of the "C" to the right of his chest protector. The catchers for the Indians during the war years were Otto Denning, Jim Hegan, and Gene Desautels in 1942 and Buddy Rosar in 43 and 44.
The Red Sox player looks like Jim Tabor.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I looked at cards of Desautels and Rosar on eBay, and Desautels looks like a pretty good candidate. I found his 1940 Play Ball and his 1953 Mothers' Cookies cards. The Play Ball is a particularly good image. I think it's a tough high number. If anybody on this board has either one of these, could you post it?

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Hope this helps:

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Mike is right, no way is that Foxx or Cochrane.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Mike

I collect Foxx items. I have hundreds of cards and photos of him. As already stated, no way. By the way, the runner looks like Buck Weaver. It's not, but it looks like him. Kind of funny.

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Posted By: Glenn

Thanks for the input, everybody. I stand corrected. I've been thinking the picture would look cool as the center panel on a T202. Not that I use photoshop, or that the photo is from the right era, just think it has a certain T202 essence to it.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Glenn, it's still a nice photo. I don't recall many catcher running down runner photos like that from any era, especially with as clear an imgage.