New Negro League memorabilia collector(s) in the market?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Well, my theory which originated from the most recent Hake Auctions definitely held true once again last night in REA. It seems that there is at least one and quite possibly more new collectors with very, very, very deep pockets who have jumped into the Negro League memorabilia market as evidenced by many incredible final prices in REA last night. It seems that the more electic stuff the better for them, with not a lot of interest paid to the more "common" cards such as Toleteros, Caramelo, etc. It's tough going up against someone who has the resources and is willing to pay "whatever it takes" to pick up quality items.

I am wondering if anyone else has been sharing my frustration of not being able to pick up any quality NL pieces lately?

[tlwise12]

Phil,

I have noticed the exact same thing! There has to be some new collector that is running everything up and it really sucks because I can't afford it being a recently graduated college student...

I was surprised I won the 1939-40 Guayama Brujos team composite for what I did!!!

Travis

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great deal on the Paige item, Travis. I guess we have to take the bargains where we can now (slim pickings).

[benchod]

Well look at the glass as half full; great time to consign your Negro League items

[bcbgcbrcb]

That's right, Craig, I alreday thought about doing that too........

[Matt]

Phil - I was also surprised by some of the NL prices. I paid about $800 for my 1942 Negro League WS program with a huge image of Josh Gibson on one side and Paige on the other. The 1938 Grays program in REA with a team image on the front/back went for about 700% of that!

[36GoudeyMan]

I'm no expert but I do try to get NL things from time to time. I see that specialized market really ebbing and flowing from year to year. Seems like sometimes, legitimate NL stuff (not the manufactured collectibles like modern lithos, etc.) cannot be given away, and sometimes the market turns red hot for a while. I get priced out of a lot of NL stuff, but, like many, have had some nice items come my way when the NL market has been softer. Reminds me a little of the 1939 Play Ball run up when Gitomer deicded he had to have the #1 set, and Don Spence tried running with him step for step. That market was red hot for a while (a lot of us got sidelined during that period), and now is sane again (more or less).

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Well, my theory which originated from the most recent Hake Auctions definitely held true once again last night in REA. It seems that there is at least one and quite possibly more new collectors with very, very, very deep pockets who have jumped into the Negro League memorabilia market as evidenced by many incredible final prices in REA last night. It seems that the more electic stuff the better for them, with not a lot of interest paid to the more "common" cards such as Toleteros, Caramelo, etc. It's tough going up against someone who has the resources and is willing to pay "whatever it takes" to pick up quality items.

I am wondering if anyone else has been sharing my frustration of not being able to pick up any quality NL pieces lately?

Hello, I am! ....but im not one of those recent elite bidders...just based on my history of understanding auctions and such, whomever these bidders are, there would likely be at least 2 of them. Until about 2 months ago, i never even heard of HAKES, and ive been in hte Sports Market for my whole life..i went to Hakes thinking, for a steal...wooof, just the opposite! lol

[triwak]

I'm with ya, Phil! Really thought I could get one of those postcards with Jud Wilson - figured they'd be just a little too obscure for most collectors. I'm thinking that these are HOF collectors who have decided to try to obtain everyone (not just Major Leaguers, as many do). And can someone PLEASE tell me why Cristobal Torriente cards are so expensive??? Up until now, I've been able to nab comparable NL HOFers (DiHigo, Hilton Smith, Leon Day, Ray Brown, etc.) for easily under 3K. That's not even touching ol' Cris right now! And he even appears on 4 different issues. ???

[bcbgcbrcb]

Ken:

Not sure why Torrienti has been so out of whack compared to other Negro League HOF'ers, may just be an anomaly as the supply of these things is so scrace anyway.

My thinking is specific to Negro Leaguers rather than all HOF'ers as most of those collectors tend to look mainly for individual player cards as opposed to team panoramas, cabinets, etc.

[benchod]

Maybe one reason Torriente is more expensive because as a whole Billikens are more popular than the Toleteros issues of the other players you mentioned

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good point, Craig, more popular, more scarce and older as well. The real comparison would have to be to Jose Mendez, Oscar Charleston, Pop Lloyd & Andy Cooper (although Charleston & Lloyd would be at a higher tier of players than Torrienti)

[benchod]

Thanks Phil,
I was shocked as you were by the 1928 Dihigo postcard. I thought I had a good chance at it but it soared to 8500 before I even raised my "marker" bid

[ElCabron]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective because I thought the Negro League items went fairly low, with the exception of that program. The Phil. Stars postcard went for quite a bit more than the last one that came up for auction, but I thought that one was a steal. This one sold closer to what I feel it "should" have gone for.

Most of the better Negro League items in the last Hake's auction were indeed won by one very low-profile, very serious collector. But I do not believe that was the case in REA. I'm not sure he was even bidding at all.

The one item I got went for much less than I was expecting it to.

The Dihigo/Wilson postcard went for right around where I thought it would, although I didn't win it.

The 1924 "Colored World Series" panorama was maybe a little high, but I've seen it sell for higher in the past.

Other than those, I thought most of the other Negro League items sold on the lower end of what I would have expected. Especially the cards.

I think the results would have been VERY different had that one bidder participated. He may well have, but I really don't think so.

-Ryan

[triwak]

I wish he'd keep an even lower profile!

[Cat]

I got one. One of my favorite pick-ups in a while.

[baseball tourist]

Here he is.....

http://mobile.boston.com/news/local/...+--+Local+news

[Misunderestimated]

Ken,
my experience is that regardless of the "number of issues" the 1920's Negro Leauge HOFer cards are much more expensive (and, I assume harder to find).

The guys you named are all on Puero Rican & Cuban cards from the 40-50's; Torriente, Mackey, Charleston, Lloyd et al are in the 1920's sets (Aguilitas, Billikens etc.)

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by baseball tourist

Here he is.....

http://mobile.boston.com/news/local/...+--+Local+news

Real nice story, but I'm gonna guess that he's not the NL memorabilia shark.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Well, another Hake's Auction and more sky high Negro League memorabilia prices, especially the real premium pieces: 1910 Punch Mendez card, 1928 Crawfords photo w/Josh Gibson & 1914 Chicago American Giants RPPC. Imagine, the prices right now are probably not even close to where they are going to wind up either.........

Good luck to all who are hoping to further their collections!

[brickyardkennedy]

Great article, Chris. Good kid, to do what he's done for those guys.

Negro League items have soared in the past year. We have been extremely aggressive bidders on a plethora of items in the Hakes and Lifson auctions.

In said auctions (not including this one- where we are bidding on 8 lots)
we only won 4 lots out 21 we bid on.

We were stunned that the Colored Baseball Magazine reach $4000- we were
the under-bidder.

We have dozens of pieces that have never been offered, and are now wondering what they might be worth. Whilst we are collectors, everything is
for sale at a Price (record).

Working on some other items privately. Will also be interested to see what
the Black Ball poster brings in the Lelands auction

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want
bdosrkind@dorskindgroup.com

[bcbgcbrcb]

Well, it's been nearly seven years since I shared my thoughts on what was going on with the Negro League Baseball collectibles market back in 2011.

Fast forwarding to today, would anyone on the board like to share their thoughts on the current state of key Negro League material?

[Jason19th]

First I cannot believe that this conversation was seven years ago. Second I feel like the market is a bit stagnant. The really great stuff never comes on the market (look how little is in REA for example ) and the second tier stuff is listed forever at ridiculous levels on eBay. I bet there are a number of items that have been listed since this conversation. It's terrible when 150 items never move because against all evidence someone thinks it worth 750

[aljurgela]

I think that the market is a bit soft right now, and frankly I believe that it is a good time to buy. The scarcity continues in good material. The HOF will look at players again soon which should drudge up some interest and there has not been appreciation in the market similar to many other cards in the hobby. Unfortunately, I am a bit tapped out in funds or would be going in super deep.... plus, I have most of the cards that I want...

[aljurgela]

that a Josh Gibson Toleteros PSA 8 just sold for $72k in HA over the weekend, so there is certainly interest in the space...

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

that a Josh Gibson Toleteros PSA 8 just sold for $72k in HA over the weekend, so there is certainly interest in the space...

*devil’s advocate .. that is Josh Gibson. That is who EVERYONE knows.

[aljurgela]

but what about the TERRIBLE Torriente Billiken that went for $4k at HA over the weekend? That may be one of the worst Billikens that I have ever seen. Does that mean that there is some interest in the space?

[scotgreb]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

but what about the TERRIBLE Torriente Billiken that went for $4k at HA over the weekend? That may be one of the worst Billikens that I have ever seen. Does that mean that there is some interest in the space?

Thanks Al - that really makes me feel good about my purchase

Seriously though, as a HOF collector, you gotta buy them when you see them -- which is not too often for Torriente.

It might be a few years until I get a shot at another card that I need.

Scott

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[h2oya311]

The same Billiken Torriente sold in a LOTG auction for $4,500 back in 2016. I know, because it was my consignment

So "stagnant" is a good word for what's going on today.

Also, Jason commented on the REA auction but needs to check the upcoming one once the catalog is available. There will be some GREAT Negro League material in that one. I hope Al's pockets become deep again before that one ends

[Topnotchsy]

I started collecting (some) Negro League items in the last couple of years. Not a ton, but I really like signed contracts (Negro or PR League). I'm selling a couple of "doubles" I have (Willard Brown and Perucho Cepeda) in the upcoming REA auction, and hoping other items of interest are there.

I don't have a perspective on Negro League items from being around long enough, but I love researching the Negro Leagues and learning about the players, teams etc.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

Thanks Al - that really makes me feel good about my purchase

Seriously though, as a HOF collector, you gotta buy them when you see them -- which is not too often for Torriente.

It might be a few years until I get a shot at another card that I need.

Scott

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Sorry about that Scott!! The reality is that you are right, you never know when a card will be availabale, which is part of the reason that I have so many dupes!! Later I find a better one and upgrade. For me that image is super important... that is me though. Everybody should buy what they like!!

[aljurgela]

Looking forward to it my friend!! How much stuff did you consign, Derek?

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

Looking forward to it my friend!! How much stuff did you consign, Derek?

all the team items...you'll recognize quite a few. Focusing on my individual player cards/photos collection.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

all the team items...you'll recognize quite a few. Focusing on my individual player cards/photos collection.

Always good to fine tune collecting! Best of luck to you Derek... can't wait to see what items made the catalogs! Looking forward to it.... will tell the wife that we need to cancel dinner reservations for the next few months to save the coin! Best Derek.... Al

[bcbgcbrcb]

Nice to see some new blood entering this segment of the hobby. At the same time, sad to hear, Derek, that you are letting go of all your Negro League team items, you had some really good stuff there.

When I was still doing the Hall of Fame Rookies collection, I actually took the opposite position when it came to looking for the ultra-scarce Negro League guys. I saw the Negro/Cuban/Puerto Rican team photo/postcard collectibles as an opportunity to fill multiple holes in my Hall of Fame collection with one purchase. As someone who had some disposable money to spend, but far from unlimited resources, this provided a solution for me to eventually reach my goal of having a career-contemporary item for every single member of the BB HOF. While I never quite reached the ultimate Rookie Card for each, I had some pretty early stuff as many of you know.

In my opinion, the team items still provide a great investment opportunity today with potentially multiple HOF'ers as well as the possibility of a big payoff in 2020 when it is believed that another group of Negro Leaguers could be enshrined in Cooperstown. Imagine, you have an early 1920's team photo with Dihigo, Torriente & Pop Lloyd and now, in 2020, Cannonball Redding is elected to the HOF and he's included in your team photo as well. Can you see some pretty significant immediate appreciation in value there?

[packs]

How about Perucho Cepeda? Think he'll ever get in?

[Scocs]

I don’t have that much experience in collecting Negro League cards, but over the course of several years I have found that many transactions of important cards and memorabilia are often not done publicly and out of the limelight. Collector to collector. And this is a great place to meet those collectors....

At least I’ve found this to be true since the Hake’s auctions of 2012-2013 where a lot of big ticket items were sold.

[bcbgcbrcb]

You’re exactly right, Scott. However, it came to light afterwards that the vast majority of those Hakes items that you mentioned all wound up in one collection. This collection was subsequently sold at Christie’s in two separate installments over 2016 and 2017.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

You’re exactly right, Scott. However, it came to light afterwards that the vast majority of those Hakes items that you mentioned all wound up in one collection. This collection was subsequently sold at Christie’s in two separate installments over 2016 and 2017.

I hope the seller at Christie's wasn't too disappointed. I felt like many of the listings were done extremely poorly. I was glad to pick up a couple of items (Perucho Cepeda contracts and Alejandro Oms signed passport) but felt like if I had been the consignor I would not have been thrilled.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I hope the seller at Christie's wasn't too disappointed. I felt like many of the listings were done extremely poorly. I was glad to pick up a couple of items (Perucho Cepeda contracts and Alejandro Oms signed passport) but felt like if I had been the consignor I would not have been thrilled.

I ended up with a lot of the items that I missed the first time around. Most were at discounts to what they went for at Hake's!... which was great for me (and most others as well)... I think that the consignor took a bit of a bath, but given the league and $ involved, I doubt that it really "matters" too much to someone with those deep pockets to start that collection in the first place.

[bcbgcbrcb]

You got it, Al. Kinda takes the challenge out of collecting when you can just buy everything that you want, no matter what the cost.

Based on what I read in the news before the first Christie's auction, the items were owned and consigned by a not-for-profit museum. It wasn't mentioned, and I truly wonder, how much of those funds that were spent accumulating that collection were grants from Major League Baseball and the like. That would make it all the more troubling, especially for those bidders competing against the whale and always coming up on the short end of the stick.

[sphere and ash]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

You got it, Al. Kinda takes the challenge out of collecting when you can just buy everything that you want, no matter what the cost.

Based on what I read in the news before the first Christie's auction, the items were owned and consigned by a not-for-profit museum. It wasn't mentioned, and I truly wonder, how much of those funds that were spent accumulating that collection were grants from Major League Baseball and the like. That would make it all the more troubling, especially for those bidders competing against the whale and always coming up on the short end of the stick.

The collector behind the sale is the son of George Roberts, the co-founder of Kohlberg Kravis Roberts (KKR). The father is worth over $5 billion. I doubt any outside funds were raised. Christie's relationship with George Roberts is the only reason it took the consignment.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

The collector behind the sale is the son of George Roberts, the co-founder of Kohlberg Kravis Roberts (KKR). The father is worth over $5 billion. I doubt any outside funds were raised. Christie's relationship with George Roberts is the only reason it took the consignment.

Wow... that is some big time coin!!! No wonder why I lost most of the pieces that I wanted!

[icollectDCsports]

Can someone provide a link to the auction results? Thanks

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

You’re exactly right, Scott. However, it came to light afterwards that the vast majority of those Hakes items that you mentioned all wound up in one collection. This collection was subsequently sold at Christie’s in two separate installments over 2016 and 2017.

It sounds like the buyer/seller would have been well advised to consign back to where he/they acquired the stuff. It sounds like Christie's didn't do the collection justice. And in this space I think it only takes a few collectors to rock the world with respect to prices.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

Can someone provide a link to the auction results? Thanks

Round 1 (2016) - https://www.christies.com/SaleLandin...d=1&saletitle=

Round 2 (2017) - https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/g...categories/374

Round 1 referenced a National Pastime Museum. I guess when you have a $5B net worth father, you can call your collection a museum if you want. The collection still sold for $10s of millions. I overpaid for a few items in both rounds, but there were certainly bargains in each.

[Fred]

I checked the links and there are a lot of items from these auctions that are now being auctioned again by other auction houses.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Round 1 (2016) - https://www.christies.com/SaleLandin...d=1&saletitle=

Round 2 (2017) - https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/g...categories/374

Round 1 referenced a National Pastime Museum. I guess when you have a $5B net worth father, you can call your collection a museum if you want. The collection still sold for $10s of millions. I overpaid for a few items in both rounds, but there were certainly bargains in each.

Me too... overpaid and underpaid... i guess that it just the general law of averages when all is said and done... but I do think that, in general, most of the items in Christie's went for lower pricing that one would expect in the future... that is just my intuition. I would also tend to agree with Leon that it only takes a couple of people in this market to rocket the prices up significantly... I think that the floors are pretty well set at least on the cards. Given the dearth of cards and the fact that most HOF collectors out there have holes for the negro leaguers, it is hard to see any of the 1920's HOFers going for much less than $5k even in PSA 1 / A shape. I still know that most of the cards in this space trade privately... at the very least most of the "very good / ex" cards tend to (especially for the 1920s cuban issues).

[bcbgcbrcb]

During the boom several years ago, card prices were strong but photos and postcards really exploded. What are thoughts on these types of Negro League collectibles these days?

I know that the 3 Harrison Studios postcards have set record prices over the past several months.