POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[HRBAKER]

So the TPAs continue to get a pass here and continue to collect their fees.
Absent any responsibility for getting it right.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So the TPAs continue to get a pass here and continue to collect their fees.
Absent any responsibility for getting it right.

my thoughts too .

[Caseyatbat]

I am a supporter of TPA's. I believe they are a very useful tool and asset in this industry. Lets face it, without them this hobby would be a complete disaster. The majority of autographs in today's market are forgeries. Major TPA's are desperately needed. Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time. Just like we as dealers and collectors are always learning, so are they.

I think the problem here is consumers are not taking TPA for what it is, "an opinion". You should never buy an item in 100% confidence just because it has top tier TPA. Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

I am a supporter of TPA's. I believe they are a very useful tool and asset in this industry. Lets face it, without them this hobby would be a complete disaster. The majority of autographs in today's market are forgeries. Major TPA's are desperately needed. Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time. Just like we as dealers and collectors are always learning, so are they.

I think the problem here is consumers are not taking TPA for what it is, "an opinion". You should never buy an item in 100% confidence just because it has top tier TPA. Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself.

Casey do you think that is the way they market themselves?

[Caseyatbat]

I believe the problem is not how they actually market themselves, rather how consumers are perceiving their opinion. Most people just assume it is genuine because it is authenticated by top tier TPA. If people actually just take 30 seconds to read the letter of authenticity it states very clearly this is only their considered opinion, and it should be treated as such.

I don't actually see the TPA's guaranteeing the authenticity of any particular item. (Yes I know they originally did years ago, but not anymore) It is usually the auction house or dealer doing that in the same sentence. An example would be, "for iron clad assurance, this item has been authenticated by PSA"

In the end, dealers want their higher end items authenticated by nationally recognized, major third party authenticators for marketing purposes. For instance, if you were buying a Ty Cobb single singed ball for 20K, would you feel more comfortable buying with a PSA letter? Or more comfortable buying it authenticated from a guy who certified it in his basement? I would take the PSA everytime. But on the flipside, I may ask the guy is his basement for his opinion as well so I could have both opinions.

[barrysloate]

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

[David W]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

[HRBAKER]

I would feel less comfortable buying an item with a PSA/DNA or JSA cert than from any of the gentlemen that Richard mentioned. What you are really referring to Casey is that the TPA COA makes the item more liquid in today's hobby that's all.

And again these authenticators have a sliding scale for their expertise based on the value of the item - that implies no expertise? They have the best of both worlds IMO, reap the benefits from implied expertise w/o any responsibility.

I agree with Barry, if I were making a living in this hobby and did not possess the personal expertise to operate w/o TPAs as the ones mentioned before I wouldn't touch an autograph.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by David W

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

The problem I have is, like you said David, it's the biggest & the best against little old, lowly Mantle collectors like me trying to get a refund. When I tried to discuss this Mickey Mantle autograph on another website (I did not purchase this, but it sold for $100.00 plus) that Todd Mueller sold at his on-line auction site last April.


I KNEW it was an easy to spot Mantle forgery, but he went on for 3 pages about "Providence" and how he knew Mantle & did signings with him, blah blah blah.

It doesn't change the fact that the item is a forgery. No one was going to make him refund that poor sap who bought this mess. So I don't put too much stock into guaranteeing in this business anyway. Can't even get the self proclaimed biggest dealer in America to shoot straight with Mickey Freaking Mantle...So I certainly see your point David.

I do wish Todd luck with his new endeavors. At least the guy is still trying to do something positive for the industry, though I hold out little or no hope that Moralless fakes will be everywhere on his new site that look just like this beauty below.

and yes, these third party guys and FDE's alike should hold up to a standard for their work. The fact that no one ever gets a refund for their lousy service is beyond me?

[Caseyatbat]

Richard,

Yes I completely agree with you. It is the autograph that should be bought, not the cert.

[Caseyatbat]

Dealers use major TPA's because it allows the items to be sold for money. For instance, a Mickey Mantle signed baseball with no TPA typically sells for the 350 dollar range. The same ball with a PSA letter will most likely sell for the 600 dollar range. That is a big difference. This happens because the buyer feels more comfortable buying it because it was authenticated by a nationally recognized TPA.

Yes its true there may be more knowledgeable smaller scale authenticators out there, but they are not major companies that are nationally recognized. If they decided to expand and become major companies like the other TPA's, maybe they can push them out and take over. But until that happens the larger ones are going to be the ones in demand. Not everybody can know about the smaller scale authenticators doing it out of their "basement", even if they are actually better at doing it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Dealers use major TPA's because it allows the items to be sold for money. For instance, a Mickey Mantle signed baseball with no TPA typically sells for the 350 dollar range. The same ball with a PSA letter will most likely sell for the 600 dollar range. That is a big difference. This happens because the buyer feels more comfortable buying it because it was authenticated by a nationally recognized TPA.

Yes its true there may be more knowledgeable smaller scale authenticators out there, but they are not major companies that are nationally recognized. If they decided to expand and become major companies like the other TPA's, maybe they can push them out and take over. But until that happens the larger ones are going to be the ones in demand. Not everybody can know about the smaller scale authenticators doing it out of their "basement", even if they are actually better at doing it.

Casey - I am not sure if you were referring to my prior post but the names I mentioned are mostly nationally recognized autograph dealers, not small time authenticators.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

I believe the problem is not how they actually market themselves, rather how consumers are perceiving their opinion. Most people just assume it is genuine because it is authenticated by top tier TPA. If people actually just take 30 seconds to read the letter of authenticity it states very clearly this is only their considered opinion, and it should be treated as such.

I don't actually see the TPA's guaranteeing the authenticity of any particular item. (Yes I know they originally did years ago, but not anymore) It is usually the auction house or dealer doing that in the same sentence. An example would be, "for iron clad assurance, this item has been authenticated by PSA"

In the end, dealers want their higher end items authenticated by nationally recognized, major third party authenticators for marketing purposes. For instance, if you were buying a Ty Cobb single singed ball for 20K, would you feel more comfortable buying with a PSA letter? Or more comfortable buying it authenticated from a guy who certified it in his basement? I would take the PSA everytime. But on the flipside, I may ask the guy is his basement for his opinion as well so I could have both opinions.

If I was buying a $20K item (though I have some very nice items in my collection I am not in that $20K item collector category) I would feel much more comfortable buying it from Jim Stinson, Ron Gordon, Bill Corcoran, Kevin Keating or Rich Albersheim, without a TPA, than buying it online from someone selling it with a TPA.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard,

I agree with you, I would feel pretty confident buying from those dealers as well. But if I go to sell that item I bought with their personal COA, I feel it has a better chance of selling for more money if it carried both a major TPA's letter as well as the personal COA it came with. The more confidence buyers have in the autograph, the more demand it will have. Everybody trusts different people, so I guess the more opinions you have the better it is. Especially if they are all pointing in the same direction

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

I am a supporter of TPA's. I believe they are a very useful tool and asset in this industry. Lets face it, without them this hobby would be a complete disaster. The majority of autographs in today's market are forgeries. Major TPA's are desperately needed. Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time. Just like we as dealers and collectors are always learning, so are they.

I think the problem here is consumers are not taking TPA for what it is, "an opinion". You should never buy an item in 100% confidence just because it has top tier TPA. Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself.

Casey,
This hobby has been around for a long, long time and managed very well without TPA's. I gave my opinion gratis on probably hundreds if not thousands of autographs for many years before TPA became a big business.
The hobby has headed down the disastrous path due in large part to the internet. It is now the wild west. There is a need for something to assist people in their autograph pursuits. But the system as it now stands is busted.
The presence of the alphabet TPA's has lead to the presence of the other TPA's whose corruption we have discussed here many, many times.
The alphabet TPA's have done some good. However, they profess to be what they are not, the implication in their advertising is that they are foolproof, that a TPA cert. guarantees (even if they don't word it that way) authenticity. Many in the hobby have placed them on a pedastal (though many fewer than say a year ago) , a pedastal that they don't really deserve to be on.
Your final statement is right on the money. "Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself."
Buy the autograph, not the cert.

[barrysloate]

If the dealer must incur full responsibility for selling a bad autograph, and not the TPA....given the current state of the hobby, I would never ever touch an autograph again. If I still ran auctions, I would reject them outright. The potential legal and financial exposure is not worth the possible commissions I might make. Period.

[David W]

The problem is 99% of the time you can't "PROVE" an auto is good or bad.

It's an opinion, and some people's opinions are better than others.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time.

Casey, the quote above, i noticed you have mentioned it on 3 different occasions in this thread, so it must be something that you truly stand behind. So i was just curious, how you know "in your experiences" they are roght on the money 99% of the time? There is no way you can say this, unless of course everything you are submitting is all in-person, signed right in front of your very eyes.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Casey, the quote above, i noticed you have mentioned it on 3 different occasions in this thread, so it must be something that you truly stand behind. So i was just curious, how you know "in your experiences" they are roght on the money 99% of the time? There is no way you can say this, unless of course everything you are submitting is all in-person, signed right in front of your very eyes.

Casey - this thread is turning into just what I hoped it would. A good healthy debate.
However, I have to agree with Bilko questioning the 99% number. If pressed I would think that even the alphabet soup guys would not condede that they are that good. Obviously, they have never come on 54 to explain what they have done, so we will probably never know what they would claim for themselves.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Casey, the quote above, i noticed you have mentioned it on 3 different occasions in this thread, so it must be something that you truly stand behind. So i was just curious, how you know "in your experiences" they are roght on the money 99% of the time? There is no way you can say this, unless of course everything you are submitting is all in-person, signed right in front of your very eyes.

But this, in turn, brings up the question of how many authenticated autos have been proven, after the fact, to be inauthentic? I mean iron clad proof, not just another opinion? It happens, but is very rare. Much less than 99 percent of the top authenticators' examples.

Every company should invalidate it's authenticity marker and refund the price of authentication if something can be proven bunk. But if it sold for 20k, how can the company be on the line for that? As someone mentioned at the onset of this thread, these are not insurers we are discussing.

[mschwade]

Here's, I think, a legitimate question... How many times do you think a TPA wavers on whether an autograph is real or not and gives an authentic opinion based on the reputation of the submitter or the dealer that the submitter purchased from?

I would like to see a TPA held somewhat responsible for giving an authentic opinion so they're less likely to deem something that they are up in the air on authentic based on anything other than the autograph itself.

If they're held somewhat responsible, they'll be forced to be even more thorough in their process, as well. That should make for a more comfortable market for buyers.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Here's, I think, a legitimate question... How many times do you think a TPA wavers on whether an autograph is real or not and gives an authentic opinion based on the reputation of the submitter or the dealer that the submitter purchased from?

I would like to see a TPA held somewhat responsible for giving an authentic opinion so they're less likely to deem something that they are up in the air on authentic based on anything other than the autograph itself.

If they're held somewhat responsible, they'll be forced to be even more thorough in their process, as well. That should make for a more comfortable market for buyers.

Do the TPA's actually know where an autograph came from when it is submitted?
My authentication business is small and I never want to know where an autograph came from when it is submitted to me for authentication. My main business is still buying and selling.
Though I want to repeat a statement from another post I made. I was asked, in another thread, if pressure was ever applied to me by an auction house. Yes pressure was put on myself and the crew I worked with by American Memorabilia.
That was one of the reasons we stopped working for them.
Is pressure applied by other auction houses, or dealers, to authenticators? I don't know the answer to that question except for my own experience. I did work for other smaller auction houses and pressure was never applied.
In light of recent stories on the net, I could start another poll and ask "do you think auction houses put pressure on authenticators to ok high ticket items?"

[Caseyatbat]

Bilko, Of course when I say that, it is my opinion. And I mentioned 99%, Which may not reflect the exact percentage, but I thought it would be good number to reflect my opinion that they are correct in their findings just about every time. Obviously there are always exceptions.

You asked "how did I come to this conclusion?" I have come to this conclusion after submitting many many items to them, and then also researching tens of thousands of previously authenticated and sold items over the past 10 years. And comparing my own conclusions to theirs. It is my job to do so.

I believe their is a common misconception about TPA's. I think the 2 major TPA's will fail any item they are not extremely confident in. I believe they would rather fail the item, than risk putting their name on it and have it draw negative attention later. So consequently, they are failing items that may very well be authentic. They just were not comfortable enough to put their name on it. And I believe they are correct in doing so when that happens, if they passed the questionable item it usually results in people going online and making a huge stink about it. So I think for the most part, people are upset about them not passing items, rather than actually passing items. This does not include "Auction letters", I agree with Richard and think are a huge gimmick. Many auction houses list their items with "Auction Letters" before they are even looked at and then later remove the item because it finally got looked at and was no good.