Do You Like the Provenance on the Flip?

[DeanH3]

I also dig cards from early pioneers.

[commishbob]

The raw card version of provenance is this:

IMG_0006.jpg

When I picked up my starter set to begin chasing the '58s a portion came stamped on the back by 'Ray Tisler'. I got curious and looked on one of those white pages sites and found a Ray Tisler in his 70s who lives in California. His age would fit the timeline of a kid collecting this set. I was tempted to try to reach him but thought better of it.

[Fred]

How does SGC or any other reputable TPG service verify the "provenance"? Grading is one thing - verifying provenance sounds like a totally different ball game.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Fred

How does SGC or any other reputable TPG service verify the "provenance"? Grading is one thing - verifying provenance sounds like a totally different ball game.

I agree. Particularly if such notations on flips do become more instrumental as selling points and impact value, when submitters would have a greater incentive to misrepresent provenance, even if it were to only be slipping a few items from outside a particular collection into group of others from a famous collection. The incentive would be there, and the TPG would have no way of knowing for sure. I think this is a tricky road to go down.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

I also dig cards from early pioneers.

Another vote for a card owned by Lionel.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I love this E98 Hal Chase that Lionel once owned. It goes to show that he had some nice low grade material as well as nicer condition cards.

I'm not sure why the image is so small, sorry about that.


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[benjulmag]

Provided,

1. The grading company has adequate documentation to verify the provenance, and
2. The provenance dates the card to a time there was little financial incentive to alter, and
3. (I) The person from whose collection the provenance refers to and the dealer who then sold the card were people who could be trusted not to alter, or (II) the provenance refers to a high condition find for which there was little reason to alter, then

the provenance could mean a great deal.

A poster example would be the Rosen find of high number 1952 Topps Mantles. A card from that find has a much greater chance of being in its unaltered state than any other high grade '52 Mantle. As the price differential between 8's and higher and the rest of the field continues to skyrocket, I believe in time, if not already, documented Rosen find Mantles will sell for a premium.

To the point that how does one know that the dealer who sold a prominent collection did not alter the cards, the answer is that we probably don't. As such, unless the card was sold directly by the collector, and that person was of such integrity that he/she was not the kind of person to alter cards, provenance in that case probably means little in terms of having confidence the card was not altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corey, your post assumes people care if cards are altered. I question the extent to which that's true for many of the new generation of buyers/investors whose eyes don't seem to go below the flip, or who just assume the TPG got it right.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Corey, your post assumes people care if cards are altered. I question the extent to which that's true for many of the new generation of buyers/investors whose eyes don't seem to go below the flip, or who just assume the TPG got it right.

You could be right Peter, but ironic isn't it the notion that this new generation might not care if the card has been altered as long as the flip says what they want it to say? Wasn't the prime rationale for the creation of TPG to give collectors the needed assurance there was no monkey business going on with the cards?

It wouldn't surprise me if the next area of collectibles that explodes in value are full-production-run uncut sheets that contain HOFers. In theory they can be cut to create gem mint cards, and I'm not buying it that the process can't be done in a way to dupe the grader.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corey allegedly that was the point of TPG, but look how it started, with ASA and then with PSA slabbing the Wagner. The Harris Collection. I could go on. PSA has commoditized the flip. It's marketing genius even if it doesn't sit well with old timers/purists.