Are they authenticating with NO exemplars now?

[travrosty]

Just ran across this.

The first link shows an auction listing of a rare Tom Sayers signed letter.

Sayers was an early boxing champion/challenger around 1860 thereabouts.

Evidently this autograph is so rare there are no exemplars to compare it to.

But it evidently didn't stop the auction house from listing the signed letter with LOA's from both PSA and JSA.

exhibit A

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10148189

Now I guess since people complained that even the long time collectors and dealers in boxing knew there were no known exemplars of Sayers handwriting, the listing has changed to no paperwork issued, but PSA and JSA BELIEVE it to be real.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7041&lotNo=81101

My question is "How can they issue LOA's for this item when this was no exemplar?"

Have they ever issued LOA's previously for items of which they have no exemplars?"

Why do they believe it to be real since there are no exemplars?

Are authentication companies in the belief business now?

Aren't they suppose to authenticate based on exemplars?

What is their belief that this item is real based on?

That people are honest, and the provenance seems believable?

Provenance has never been faked or misattributed before?

Is that belief worth anything?

Was this BELIEF previously good enough to issue a full LOA, but not now since they got caught with no exemplars?

These questions need to be answered. I don't have the answers.

What's going on?

[RichardSimon]

I guess you can call it faith based authentication.
As an old baseball philosopher once said "Ya gotta believe."

[travrosty]

If full Loa's were previously issued, the wording on the typical LOA says that the autograph matches in slant, flow, pen pressure other exemplars they have examined in their professional careers. If these full LOA's exist, it would seem not be a true statement based on what information we have seen now.

[doug.goodman]

Pay the fee and they'll give you an opinion, maybe it's a good opinion, maybe it's a bad opinion, maybe it's somewhere in the middle, either way they got their fee. Seems like a pretty good system to me. Laughing out loud.

Doug

[D. Bergin]

I saw that awhile ago Travis. Not the first bare-knuckle signature I've seen offered at a major auction that made me roll my eyes.

There was a certain whole book of them at a major auction house a couple years ago and offered more then once that made me question my own sanity.

Why would Sayers, pretty much believed to be illiterate, go to the trouble of writing out a challenge acceptance? Promoters and managers usually did this through handbill challenges and newspaper postings?

Also, legalese type contracts were already a normal occurrence at this time. I've got a copy of Yank Sullivan vs. John Morrissey in my files that is still in the hands of the family of the original stakeholder, last I knew. Not some scrawl from the boxer.

Have you seen the copy of the Tom Sayers unused passport to France that was listed in "Famous Fights"?

It has what appears to be a nice looking "Thomas Sayers" signature on it, but underneath has the phrase "his mark", which makes me wonder if somebody else actually signed it for him.

[Exhibitman]

I don't see what the problem is: "It was found among the papers left by Dr. Robert Clarke, of Settle, Yorkshire. Clarke was a collector of old letters of note and famous signatures."

What, a third person's word about what was found in some dead dude's personal effects 100 years after the event isn't good provenance? They're English, they wouldn't lie...would they?

I'm sticking to cards and related images; I don't need provenance on them.

[travrosty]

I believe it was JSA that authenticated a Geo. Dixon autograph a few years back and the auction listing even said it was a one of a kind. so how could they do that if they didnt have an exemplar?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3624634

here is the listing, note the listing says that they know of no other. Then how in the world can it be authenticated by JSA. HELP! It was offered by Sotheby's. A big time auction house. Could they see the conflict between no other examples known and a JSA cert. JSA's certs state that the pen pressure, slant, flow are consistent with other exemplars we have seen in our professional careers. REALLY? What is the proper pen pressure for a George Dixon autograph? Maybe JSA had another Dixon exemplar but didn't tell Sotheby's?

Here is the other George Dixon auto I have seen, precertified by PSA/DSA.

http://www.liveauctionworld.com/George-Dixon_i9361592

Now where is their exemplar? Did they use the JSA certed Dixon as an exemplar. you can't do that! One signature that is not on an official document cannot be used to cert one other one. Not enough exemplars! Plus true exemplars have to be established autographs that we KNOW are good, usually official documents signed with witnesses, contracts, notarized, etc.. You can't use one as a chicken and egg type authentication. I don't know what they used as exemplars so I can't accuse them of using none or faulty exemplars but maybe they can tell us what they used? Comparing these two Dixon signatures, it is inconclusive if they came from the same hand. They look a little alike and a little different. More exemplars are needed. Many more.

I did not see the passport of Sayers. But I do want to find another exemplar of Sayers signature. Is there one out there? I am trying to track one down. There is a monastery on a top of a mountain in Lhasa, Tibet that supposedly has one. Guarded by Shaolin monks. I got a guy on a satellite phone trekking his way up there right now. Spare no expense, we will find a Sayers exemplar.

All accounts were that he was illiterate. A long written out letter does not seem to be what someone would expect from him, but certainly issuing LOA's based upon belief of provenance is not a good idea.

Saying that psa and jsa withdrew their LOA's is one thing, but to say that they still believe it to be real but they can't prove it due to lack of exemplars is grasping at straws, and is another attempt to try to put legitimacy to it by saying that psa and jsa like it. If they can't prove it then it doesn't matter. It's suppose to be 150 years old. It was found in someone's papers. Who knows how he got it or if it is real or not.